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Post by gunnerhoots on Oct 7, 2011 18:45:19 GMT
I hope no-one minds me starting this new thread but I was trying to find out what you'd all written about grass tracking and it was all buried some where in a Screwfix thread. There was a bit of discussion about running off road comps and the costs involved. It seems to me a great way forward to have properly run (insured,safety etc) comps but also just for general meets to have a bit of an informal race without contravening traffic laws or endangering the public. A few of the lads ,like minded adults etc getting together for a bit of a laugh. Cost s could be minmal , a bob or two for the fields owner , a few course markers, a first aid box ,owner driver 4x4 tow back up ,wee in a bucket (loser empties). I dunno whaddu you all think? See you all , well a few of you on Sunday.
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Post by peasnbarley on Oct 8, 2011 8:44:14 GMT
Hi :- There are several issues here the first being do the teams want grass racing? Several have indicated they think it is too slow and the buzz is not there. No event is cheap to set up when you start talking about insurance, communications and venue.Seriously you can't ask teams to attend and not provide a toilet. You ask the wife what she thinks about your idea of using a bucket. ;D I think a good mixed terrain track in the right place would add a lot and even more so if it was racing rather than time trials. Also we tend to think of fields as an area of grass but they are an intrinsic part of a farmers income and come with their own problems as regards Environmental Health Departments. In short the costs will not be significantly less than existing community based events such as Catterline. A 'club' get together set up on an impromptu basis could possibly run without bothering about anything other than getting the farmers active support to use his land but if anything went wrong the person who instigated the get together could end up with serious financial problems.
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Post by neils on Oct 8, 2011 23:09:50 GMT
OK, question, a bunch of mates go mountain biking, they agree to meet somewhere, race down a hill, one of them falls off and breaks his leg etc. what do they do? Sue the bloke who suggested going mountain biking? I dont see any difference with what we want to do. Same could be said for any other sport. Grass tracking is as fast as the hill is steep also it's not all about speed as I am sure we will find out tomorrow/today! Is there a link between poor economy and increased H&S and paperwork/trail? Less cants more cans please
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Oct 10, 2011 11:38:39 GMT
Off road racing is can be just as much fun as tarmac and, as the Screwfix final showed - it doesn't have to be fast to be challenging and exciting. It's not a better or worse - just different.
It offers several advantages;
* more compact and self contained venue - easier to manage access etc. * makes it easier to manage if you can see the finish line from the start line. * comms can be done using cheap consumer walkie talkies or even by just shouting. * lots of space for runnoff on corners, so no need for much course protection. * lower speeds and more forgiving landings mean you don't have to have tech spec's as restrictive as the ones we are currently using. none of that pish about roll bars and harnesses. just wear a helmet. * lower spec means lower hurdle to entry. much easier for people to get involved. * "traditional" plank and rope carties could be used - much more likely to attract families, schools, youth groups, etc. * more likely to be able to recover the carties back to the start line without disrupting the actual racing, so no delays.
If you have access to a field with enough gravity in it then it could easily be a way to have a fun day larking about with your mates without a lot of effort.
However, I don't think it really offers a shortcut to running a properly organised event. If you are planning - say - an open event where you invite teams to pay entry fees then all the organisational overheads are the same regardless of whether you are racing on mud or tarmac. You'll still need a risk assessment, first aid provision, marshals, timing, toilets, etc. And you'll still need willing volunteers to set up, run and rig then rig down the event. You could possibly dispense with the third party insurance if you exclude the public and make it "disclaimer only", or you could require teams to have their own insurance, but if it is an open event (as opposed to a closed one where you just invite your mates) then competitors have a reasonable expectation that you're properly discharging your duty of care towards them.
To be honest, the things that people think are the big problems when organising major road races - road closure, insurance, risk assessments - are nowhere near as difficult as you might imagine. The biggest problem is finding the volunteers willing to provide the manpower to actually run the event on the day, and that won't change just because you're racing in a field.
So; off road racing can be fun and challenging and has some benefits in terms of getting people started in cartie racing because of the greatly reduced technical hurdle to get over in the first place, but I don't think it's a universal panacea to the challenges of organising an event.
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Post by gunnerhoots on Oct 10, 2011 12:00:41 GMT
All the above is true and makes a lot of sense. What I was thinking was that we build these carts and just use them 2 or three times a year ,driving hundreds of miles for a race (usually in Scotland and theres nothing wrong with that) and then they sit in a shed for the rest of the year. A once or twice a year get together 'run what you brung' locally ,might just keep interest levels up.
We may have a field!!! I ve also just read the post about an event at Scammonden ,great news.
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Post by neils on Oct 11, 2011 12:32:19 GMT
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Post by peasnbarley on Oct 11, 2011 15:21:18 GMT
Hi Neils: I am all out of cant's since your previous post so all that's left is a can. A five year old has shown it's do-able although the video made me cringe in some bits where trees jumped out at him. ;D Well done to Mr C and yourself for letting him do it. Looks narrower than Castle Forbes but my cart could probably fit as is but getting round some of those corners would be exciting! ;D
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Post by Organgrinder on Oct 11, 2011 17:56:37 GMT
I've ridden Berm Baby Berm on a bike - It would make a great course for soapboxes - not too narrow, but the sharp ramps make best suited to a cart with well damped suspension. Use those berms to maintain speed!
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Post by neils on Oct 11, 2011 20:41:15 GMT
Ok, looks like a recce trip to Glentress is on the carts. The video was nothing to do with me, just grabbed it off Glentress website.
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Post by grahamk on Oct 11, 2011 23:31:13 GMT
Glentress is only 17 miles from me, i will try and have a look between now and sunday. I know there are loads of runs up there and i think there is a wider one.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Oct 12, 2011 11:48:24 GMT
The other thing about offroad racing is that it is a great leveller. The speeds involved are far lower and so aerodynamics has little or no effect. By far the biggest drag is between the wheels and the surface (grass, mud, etc), so fancy bearings and tyres will make very little difference. It all comes down to picking a good line and keeping it neat and tidy - basically, the driver's skill makes a huge difference.
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Post by peasnbarley on Jan 26, 2012 10:33:08 GMT
Long time since folks were going forth to look into the possibilities of this little track so what happened?
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Post by peasnbarley on Sept 7, 2012 17:32:29 GMT
Are folk still interested in grass tracking, or more accurately, a mixed terrain time trials? There is a possibility of creating a permanent mixed terrain track in Aberdeenshire. The track would be a mixture of forest trails, grass covered hardcore tracks, tarmac and a compacted granite dust road. Total length in excess of 1.5km with maximum gradient of 1/4.70 and an average gradient of 1/18.50. Maximum speed 45-50mph on the hard and up to 35-38 on the forest track and grass. There will be no bits on the track where speeds bleed off risking a stall. The remit is to provide a mixed terrain not a rough terrain track so that most existing carts could compete with minimal alteration. The event would probably be classed as a Club activity open to 'club' members only, the objective to have a hassle free, fun filled event. There would be camping on site with a Marque Barbecue evening. Rules to be as relaxed as possible while maintaining sensible safety requirements such as decent brakes and construction to suit the purpose. The usual personal safety equipment as regards helmet, gloves and coveralls. There will be several advisory items such as a ground clearance something like a minimum of 3" and recommendation to have some sort of suspension. However if a driver is squishy arsed and happy to get a bit bruised that's up to him.
At the moment fluid is the word so I won't be answering any questions on where, when or specifics regarding rules. Feedback on those conditions would be great.
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Post by andy on Sept 7, 2012 21:05:44 GMT
Charlie...this is indeed good news...we have a cart that would be ideal for an event like this and would be more than happy to make the journey North to support the event. I think that everyone who took part in the screwfix events thoroughly enjoyed the sport and would jump at the opportunity to have a more of the same. Marquee and a BBQ evening to boot !!!.......where do we sign up to be in the "Club" ?
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Post by peasnbarley on Sept 7, 2012 22:21:55 GMT
Hi Andy, If it can be shown there is an interest in such an event then the lads can do something along the lines of signing something. As I am a little inebriated tonight I better not write any more tonight. ;D
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Post by gunnerhoots on Sept 8, 2012 10:27:41 GMT
Andy + 1. This is what I want from cartying (as well as the other stuff). Put me down . Give me a bit of warning to build a new cart. Mind the one for Screwfix only took 4 evenings to build. I m loving the minimal rules bit, lets just rock up and have a good time. It would be great to get a good off road/multi surface scene going. Keep up the good work Charlie. Looking forward to have a whisky with you next time we meet.....just the one though ,I m not made of money.
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Post by peasnbarley on Sept 8, 2012 13:02:02 GMT
Gunnerhoots: Take this as your first warning to start building and thanks for the feedback.
The first problem is dates that suite the majority and knowing with some certainty this is the sort of weekend the lads are looking for. What we have, (notice the we) is a nearly blank sheet and I would like everyone who is interested to get involved in building the event. What I mean by that is to obtain a consensus on things like the best date, we would like this, please don't do that, can we bring Rah-rah girls? People can help by passing the word to other teams to get involved and consider building, or make plans to modify what they already have . All I can do at this point is stick my neck out and start at this end arranging for good people to do things to make constructing the track possible in 2013.
The facts are: A suitable permanent site is on offer at zero cost. I don't have a costing as yet on 'constructing' the track. Cost depends on how much I can get contractors to do for nothing. Presently I have zero funds to kick start the project but have several contacts. There is time to raise money by running other local happenings such as Bingo nights and discos. A community council member has invited me to discuss the project at their next meeting this Tuesday. Other events are planned in Aberdeen-shire for 2013 and there is a possibility of there being too much of a good thing for teams regards choice and travel. The legal/official/grant side of things will take up a lot of time and effort and keeping people motivated and on side is difficult. Having said all that I am confident it is all do-able if the teams support the venture and keep in mind that this will be a permanent venue that can be built on, year on year.
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Post by dougpeel on Sept 18, 2012 8:46:34 GMT
i still have my screw fix cart, although re-worked and made longer after an unfortunate incident involving a tree. I would be up for something like this!
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Post by team-art on Sept 29, 2012 10:32:00 GMT
Hi Charlie, any news?
IF it goes ahead have you got any likely dates in mind ? Might help plan what/how many events to do next year.
So far I’ve got: Border Bogies, Richards Castle, Worlaby Downhill and your “possibility”?
Cheers Rich
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Post by peasnbarley on Oct 17, 2012 10:53:36 GMT
Hi Team-Art: No real news as yet other than we have been checking out the available options and the decision has been made that the proposed track has great potential and we should go ahead with it if at all possible.
The question at the moment is how smooth can a mixed terrain track be made so that existing carts can use it without serious modification. The grass track will be very fast in places and braking difficult unless we build in grippy sections to assist in taking the corners which means spending money. The lads want to build a banked corner which will be great but equals more money although this would allow a much faster corner exit which resolves a problem of a short following incline. Not a problem on tarmac but on grass a different matter. Given decent weather during construction and time to allow new grass to grow in any bare bits I see no reason why the grass section can't be made smooth enough for a cart like C12 or Pist'n'broke to go flat out; not that they would have much option in the wet as braking outside the braking zones would be exciting to say the least. The tarmac section will be the bumpiest as there is no way we can afford to lay a whole section of tar. It would be no worse than the Cairngorm 2012 surface. The hardcore section of track should be relatively smooth with 60 tons of granite dust allowed for to level off any rough areas. A bad winter may well create problems which will then require more hardcore surfacing than allowed for which would be a bummer but we will just have to see what Mother nature brings.
The date of the event by necessity would have to be at the back end of the year (2013) in order to allow time to build the track and things to grow and surfaces to settle. As to how confident I am the event will actually come off, that is dependent on the help I can elicit from the Estate owner, local contractors and being able to raise about one third of the set up cost myself. To date I have 50% of the money required to buy the hardcore and a promise of the loan of a mini digger for a few days. I have an inexhaustible supply of sub-base and top soil material on hand but need a friendly digger and tractor / trailer to transport it to the site. As usual the number of competitor entries of say 25 x £ 60 would be critical in covering the days costs but can't come anywhere near the set up costs.
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