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Post by team-art on Aug 28, 2012 11:12:45 GMT
Border Bogie 2013 will be on 25th May
No major changes to the event or rules are envisaged, just a lot more Marshals and no push start for carts (juniors still need a push to avoid some coming to a standstill). We will start updating the web site in the next couple of weeks.
All disciplines are welcome (hoping for more gravity bikes!)
See you there! (we hope)
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Aug 28, 2012 13:29:16 GMT
Any particular reason for not allowing push starts any more?
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Post by team-art on Aug 28, 2012 13:54:27 GMT
Because it’s an ingredient of the cart (how fast is it off the line?)
Because there’s no question of it not being fair and equal.
Because that’s what most teams seem to want.
Cheers Rich
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Aug 28, 2012 14:13:44 GMT
Pah - just the "billy no mates" teams...
Gonna do the same for the luge, bikes, sidecars, etc?
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Post by team-art on Aug 28, 2012 14:19:50 GMT
Pah - just the "billy no mates" teams... Gonna do the same for the luge, bikes, sidecars, etc? No
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Aug 28, 2012 14:26:23 GMT
Odd. Why is it unfair and unequal for carties but fair for everyone else?
I don't really mind - it just means that the carties are going to be slower that the sidecars.
It's a decision for event organisers depending on what kind of an event you're going for, but there are circumstance when a push start makes a lot of sense from an organisational point of view. For instance - if your course has a very shallow gradient at the top, a push start can get the carties going a lot quicker so significantly reducing the time for each run and so allowing you to handle more competitors.
Also - not sure a push start will have any affect on whether or not the juniors run out of gravity. It won't make them go any faster - it just means they get to their top speed quicker.
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Post by Organgrinder on Aug 28, 2012 14:32:42 GMT
Great news Rich.
Looking forward to Border Bogies 2013 already. Now we have sorted our wheel flexing issues, we should be able to give the course a real go next year.
I see sidecar racing as a team event, where each member of teh crew has a part to play in the overall speed of the ouitfit. As a sidecar monkey I like the push start for us, as it gives an extra purpose to my involvement and it's a way that I can make a contribution to the overall speed of our race. I suspect we would be more competitive if we employed an Olympic bobsleigh brakeman to get the outfit rolling, but we're racing for fun. By comparison, soapbox drivers compete as individuals and I can see why the purist soapbox racers want a level playing field, so would prefer to race without push starts.
Pushing off has always been part of luge racing and I can't see how you could race a gravity bike from a dead halt, so they will always have to be pushed in some way - it's an intrinsic part of their race.
Let's allow each class to do what they prefer, concentrate on enjoying our racing and having lots of friendly banter
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Aug 28, 2012 14:43:55 GMT
All events have different objectives. Let's allow all event organisers run things the way they see fit.
I'd hate to see anyone getting the idea that dead starts are somehow more correct or more pure. It feels like prejudice to me.
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Post by team-art on Aug 28, 2012 14:47:40 GMT
Odd. Why is it unfair and unequal for carties but fair for everyone else? I don't really mind - it just means that the carties are going to be slower that the sidecars. Also - not sure a push start will have any affect on whether or not the juniors run out of gravity. It won't make them go any faster - it just means they get to their top speed quicker. Bike etc…. Pushing is an intrinsic part of the type of vehicle. For a cart it’s an external source of energy not one provide by the pilot or monkey. Why would it matter in the least if Sidehacks are faster than carts? They don’t compete in the same class! Last year it did have an effect on the Juniors!
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Post by team-art on Aug 28, 2012 15:07:03 GMT
All events have different objectives. Let's allow all event organisers run things the way they see fit. I'd hate to see anyone getting the idea that dead starts are somehow more correct or more pure. It feels like prejudice to me. Personally I think it is more “pure” for carts. I wouldn’t call that prejudice merely an (my) opinion.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Aug 28, 2012 15:13:52 GMT
Bike etc…. Pushing is an intrinsic part of the type of vehicle. For a cart it’s an external source of energy not one provide by the pilot or monkey. Why would it matter in the least if Sidehacks are faster than carts? They don’t compete in the same class! Or perhaps pushing is an intrisic part of the team as a whole, if you're running a team based event? Maybe it's another part of the design tradeoff - make it lighter so you get a faster push at the cost of a lower top speed? It could make a difference on a shorter course. It doesn't really matter to me if the "pesky sidehacks" are faster, but it does seem to matter a lot to some.
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Post by Organgrinder on Aug 28, 2012 16:44:33 GMT
I'm not sure who's comparing soapboxes with sidecars, or for that matter bikes and luges.
What we are talking about is a range of essentially gravity-powered vehicles that are actually very different from one another and, to a degree, achieve their speed in different ways. On some courses, such as Cairngorm, the soapbox has so far been the quickest, but at other venues sidecars have been faster this year.
I can't see that it matters a jot whether one class is faster than another as long as there are separate classes and like races against like. Lets all embrace the different classes and rejoice in the fact that between us we can gather sufficient competitors to make most races financially viable. This enables us to get together a few times a year and have a lot of enjoyment.
It's of academic interest only to me which type of machine is quickest. However, as we were the only sidecar to run at Dalby this year we did the first of our runs on Sunday without a push to see how we compared with the soapboxes. Our time without a push start was 1 minute 19.7 seconds, which would have placed us second overall behind Red Gazelle if we had been racing in a combined class. However, it has to be borne in mind that we were heavier than the soapboxes and I think competitors in the soapbox class would have been quite justified to have a grumble if we had been awarded a prize.
Thankfully, Andy and Michelle didn't try to compare our times with the rest of the Dalby runners and we were in a class of our own. What mattered for us was that we had a great weekend.
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Post by team-art on Aug 28, 2012 17:48:43 GMT
Thankfully, Andy and Michelle didn't try to compare our times with the rest of the Dalby runners and we were in a class of our own. What mattered for us was that we had a great weekend. Perhaps you didn't get a prize at Dalby but you did get a hug! And it'll be great to see you both at BB, defending your title. Cheers Rich
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Post by peasnbarley on Aug 28, 2012 19:10:29 GMT
Great getting such an early notification regards the date of the 2013 event Rich. That lets me confirm my hotel booking. As a single entry team I presume I come under the category of a 'Billy no mates team' and would just like to dispel any idea that anyone in that situation would ever find themselves short of friendly people to give them a good push start. However I have never liked the idea of push starts as I believe they remove an important aspect of cartie racing as Rich has already said. I can't help but point out it was you catterlinecarties who drafted the SCA rule stating carts must be powered by gravity alone. In my book a person pushing is definitely stored energy.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Aug 28, 2012 23:54:43 GMT
I disagree - I think push starts add an important aspect - physical, visceral effort, muscles, sweat, sinew, spectacle and passion. I think a dead start is just that. Dead. Dull. Lifeless. Devoid of excitement. Push starts are an absolute necessity at races where the initial gradient is very shallow.
I also think the effect of a push start on overall time is overstated, especially on longer courses with a decent initial gradient such as Border Bogies. I reckon the difference between a push start and a dead start is something of the order of 4 seconds at BB. The difference between an olympic bobsled and a fat old bloke push start is likely to be only fractions of a second - certainly within the margin that can be made up by good driving skills. Heck you probably give away more time than that just from the drag of your video camera.
The "vehicle must be powered by gravity alone" wording was, I'm fairly sure, lifted from a prior source, although I can't remember where at the moment. Strict adherence to this is not always practical in any case, as I'm sure you are aware. If it were, there would be quite a few carties still sat on the Cairngorm flatlands or at the foot of Molly's Mount at Annandale.
If I can just adapt a previous posting on this forum; I just hope that other events don’t consider adopting “no push starts”. That would seriously **** me off.
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Post by danv on Oct 12, 2012 9:30:23 GMT
Going to try to join you for this one next year Rich. All the best Dan
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