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Post by pivaracing on Sept 21, 2011 22:38:38 GMT
Of course, international riders always will be welcome to race with us in Spain.
Last year in the final round of spanish cup in Seares (Asturias, north of Spain), was invited Jan Sejkora (European Champion C4). He win the race and his presence was very important to boost the european c4 class in Spain.
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Post by pivaracing on Sept 21, 2011 22:50:49 GMT
Calixto can explain better than me this aspects, like a FDI member (spanish federation of gravity sports). Here in Spain we taken several years with a common rules to unify the most local races, create a Spanish Cup of 5 rounds and the Spanish championship at single race, and the final race, Race of Champions, where are invited the first riders of all class. And last years FDI is a part of FISD, the international federation of speedDown.
From Spain we are trying to organizate when possible a European Cup race in Spain.
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Post by zonagravedad on Sept 22, 2011 7:42:34 GMT
Hi again! I've opened a topic in our forum for UKGSA riders. Feel free to insert your comments: www.zonagravedad.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5454&sid=381fca33b7963167e2922f14002fda18Just in case it's usefull to take some ideas, this are the main steps we've followed this last years: - In 2005 We had around 60 races in Spain. All of them local and with no relationship between them. We created the FDI to make a unified rulebook, a webpage to announce races and results ( www.zonagravedad.com , then we added www.fedei.com ) and an accident insurance for riders and a liability insurance for race organisers. - FEDERATION AND ASSEMBLY: An annual general assembly in february to: choose members, adjust rulebooks, choose UK championship races, etc. Federation pays hotels, transports and meals. The rest of the year you tal a lot via internet and you meet in national races. - RULEBOOK: It has to include technical vehicle rulebook ( dimensions ,weights, security, etc ) www.fedei.com/upload/descargas/NormativaTecnicaCategorias7062.pdf , an organizer rulebook ( insurance, track protection, marshals, etc. ) www.fedei.com/upload/descargas/NormativaTecnicaOrganizadores8414.pdf and a sportive rulebook ( national and regional championships, point system, etc. ) www.fedei.com/upload/descargas/NormativaTecnicaPilotos2816.pdfIt is a long term work: you make a first rulebook that combines the common practices all over UK with some adjustments in security. Then, every year you improve it slightly to avoid quick changes that could be rejected by most people whose vehicles become clearly out of rulebook. You could keep a "traditional" category ( 20" wheels, etc. ) and include a C4 category for those who aspire to go racing to continental Europe ( France and Belgium aren't that far away ). If you are really interested, I can transalte into english both spanish and european rulebooks if you want to work on them. - INSURANCE AND SANCTIONING: The first years only a fraction of the races will comply the rulebook. The federated riders will have the accident insurance in sanctioned races and organizers will have liability insurance if they comply with the rulebook. This attracts more riders to UKGSA sanctioned races every year, improves security and makes it easier for organizers. You offer a "one day license" for ocasinal riders who just rice at their local race. - CHAMPIONSHIPS: I would suggest to create some regional champpionships of 4-10 races ( only half plus one results counts for classification ) plus one UKGSA Cup of 3-5 races ( best one of every regional championship ) and a UK Championship of one race. It's very exciting for riders, a pride for organizers and an attractive to sponsors and authorities and it will empower both regional and natinal racing scene. The same race seems more attractive to general public if it's the "UK Gravity Sports Championship". - ECONOMY: In Spain, every rider pays a 60€ fee ( 30€ for insurance and 30€ for FDI ). A one day license costs 30€. Every local race pays a 150 € fee and every national championship race pays 600 €. This money pays assembly expenses, web site, FDI marshals in races, weight scales, photocell chronometer, flyers, exhibitions, special support to national championship race, etc. A part of the fee goes to regional comitees according to their number of riders ( trophees, marshals, etc. ) I guess that the most important things to keep in mind are: - To have a long term plan ( ideal rulebook, championship configuration, etc. ) and advance to it in little steps every year. - To have enough people in UKGSA: It's a hard work, you have to deal with differences between organizers, riders, national feelings. It's not payed and it takes a big amount of personal time. You need fresh and positive people to distribute duties and avoid burning them out in a couple of years. - To deffend all the approaches to gravity sports: from the most competitive to the less competitive. From European soapbox to street luge: all of them contribute. Togheter we can do it. Alone we're weak. - To comunicate: you need an attractive and well updated website with IKGSA news, tech articles of all disciplines, race announcements and reports, photos, etc. Forum is very important: keep working on it. I would include regional sub-forums for local-regional events and an international events subforum: it works fine for us. If you really want and you have patience to develope a 5 year plan. I'm sure that Gravity Sports will greatly consolidate and grow in UK. If it has worked in Spain, it should work in UK... By the way: in UK races you have to ride on your left ? ;D ;D ;D Hope to meet you someday at the races... Calixto
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Sept 22, 2011 8:50:26 GMT
We've talked about this kind of thing in the past, but I think it's fair to say that there isn't really very much interest or support for the idea of a national sanctioning body in the UK - certainly for cartie races anyway. In Scotland we already run a national championship over the 4 races we have here, but we don't need to have standard rules, affiliation, race sanctioning, driver insurance, controlling bodies etc for that to work. We just give teams points for their race placings and then add them all up at the end of the year whilst leaving the individual event organisers to get on with running their event as they see fit. There is nothing to stop your racers from coming over here and racing with us - I think your C4 machines would be allowed at most events without any trouble at all. There is also nothing to stop teams in the UK from building C4 class carties and racing with you.
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Post by team-art on Sept 22, 2011 11:28:53 GMT
I plan to build a new soapbox this winter, which would meet the C4 spec. As I understand it to build a C4 the main rule differences are max length 2300, must have 4 wheel brakes (foot operated) and wheel size (305,349 would be ok) or use a 8” wheel (12”-203 tyre) as most (but not all) in Europe do. The weight limit for C4 is 200kg with driver “The maximum weight, driver installed in the box in full gear”
Rich
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Post by leew on Sept 22, 2011 11:39:31 GMT
I have used machine translation, any idea what this bit means: "Management is driven by a drive closed (no handlebars). Independent wheel suspensions are allowed"
And this: Minerva type Kart C1A compulsory for classes C3, C4 recommended for.
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Post by team-art on Sept 22, 2011 12:00:42 GMT
Lee, my interpretation was carts must have a steering wheel (“no handlebars”) “Independent wheel suspensions are allowed” some of their classes do not allow suspension, C4 does allow suspension.
The last one I have just totally ignored!
Rich
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Sept 22, 2011 12:16:01 GMT
@calixto: Is there any chance of getting an official English translation of your construction rules?
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Post by pivaracing on Sept 22, 2011 13:43:12 GMT
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Sept 22, 2011 13:52:59 GMT
Do you know if there was any particular reason for setting the maximum wheel diameter just 58mm smaller than one of the most common and easy to source wheels on the planet?
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Post by pivaracing on Sept 22, 2011 13:58:58 GMT
I agree, i dont know the reason for the limitiation of the wheel diameter, there are FISD regulations, in Spain we have to fit at this regulations and build new cars (carties as you says) to this class.
On the other hand, with your carties, i believe that you can race in our GX class, here in Spain.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Sept 22, 2011 14:01:53 GMT
It's even worse for the C5 class (sidecar). Maximum wheel diameter = 500mm so a standard 20 inch wheel is 8mm too big.
Seriously - that's just mental.
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Post by team-art on Sept 22, 2011 16:25:15 GMT
OK transport sorted ebay #160654380338 Now it's 2000kms from here but I am sure we could make a summer holiday out of it! Cliff is over 70 now, hope he has renewed his licence.
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Post by stevec12 on Sept 22, 2011 21:02:34 GMT
now how many carties could you get in there ? I dont think im that far away from ( C4 ) now as i stand and with the brakes i was wanting to get fitted over the winter and a few little tweeks but i cant see anything about fully enclosed cockpits are they ok ?
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Post by pivaracing on Sept 22, 2011 22:02:25 GMT
hello again!! in c4, the close cockpits are allowed, my soapbox runs the final races with a cockpit plastic cover. The fastest soapboxes in Europe are formula style, open cockpit and uncovered wheels.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Sept 23, 2011 9:46:37 GMT
We have a provision in our rules that allows carties that are outside of the specification to still run provided they meet the minimum safety requirements (i.e. effective brakes and steering, etc) so a cartie can be slightly too long or have wheels that are a bit over size but still take part. Such carties are not eligible for race prizes, but it still allows people to enjoy themselves without having to get into arguments about a few cm.
Is there a similar policy on the continent?
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Post by stevec12 on Sept 23, 2011 12:53:42 GMT
"The fastest soapboxes in Europe are formula style, open cockpit and uncovered wheels."
Is formular style ? another group or just the look of the soapbox ? on the tracks here we have found a fully enclosed aero cockpit makes a big diffrance to top speed what sort of speeds are you getting ? I take it " Sejkora Soapboxes " make and sell kits/full soapboxes are there any other makers ? howmany people just buy a box rather than make it themselves as most do in the uk .
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Post by zonagravedad on Sept 23, 2011 14:36:49 GMT
Richard Thomas sent me this question. I guess that it could be of interest for someone, so I paste it here... > I am planning a c4 build this winter, it will be able to use both 8" wheels and also 16" wheels. > In a straight line some of our 20" wheels might be faster?? But I don't think our brakes and wheels would cope (for long) with your far more technical courses. > Could you give me some advice, I have some 8" wheels that are 32mm (inside the rim) and plan to use 54-203 tyres that I have, do you think the Rubena Slick 62-203 would be too wide for a 32mm inside rim? Whats the minimum rim width you use with the Runena Slick? Here in Spain we had the same doubts two years ago and they dissipated when Jan Sejkora came to race in Spanish Cup and won the race with its little C4 soapbox with 8" rims ( many spanish riders also thought thay they were very weak, etc. ). There is a lot of myth about wheel size and profile and max speed. Rolling resistance is an important factor at slow speeds, but it's just 10-20% of total drag at 50 mph. The most important factors are: - Aeroinamics ( Low Cx and low frontal area ). Open cockpit and open wheel are allways faster than closed cockpit and enclosed wheels ( you MIGHT reduce Cx but you increase frontal area ). - Stability ( Low center of gravity ). Ground clearene of 1-3 inches, very low seat and low body position. - Lateral traction ( 4.8 bar tires, torsion resistant wheels and 1" travel suspension ) The 8" x 2,50 magnesium rims are compatible with both 12 1/2 x 2 1/4 small Rubena slicks and with big 16 x 4 Mitas tires. They are light, very rigid and with a nice disc brake integration ( see www.sejkora.cz/products_en.html ) I can't make a direct compraison of 20" vs 16", but 12 1/2" and 16" give me quite similar top speeds and I'm consistently 3 to 6 mph faster than my rivals in Spanish Cup, so my advise is to go to 8" rims with 12 1/2 or 16" tires. In 29th European Championships ( 211 riders from 8 countries ), 95% of the riders use those wheels. They have tried a lot of options and they have a lot of experience. I think it's a good idea to learn from them... Brake discs are very, very powerfull usin 12 1/2 tires ( less wheel torque for smaller diameter ). With 16" is just OK ( more wheel torque for bigger diameter ). About exact measures of tires and rims, I'm not an expert. I suggest you ask Jan Sejkora, from Czech Republic at: honza@sejkora.czSee you... Calixto
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Post by pivaracing on Sept 23, 2011 15:14:48 GMT
"The fastest soapboxes in Europe are formula style, open cockpit and uncovered wheels." Is formular style ? another group or just the look of the soapbox ? on the tracks here we have found a fully enclosed aero cockpit makes a big diffrance to top speed what sort of speeds are you getting ? I take it " Sejkora Soapboxes " make and sell kits/full soapboxes are there any other makers ? howmany people just buy a box rather than make it themselves as most do in the uk . I says "formula style" to the look of the soapboxes, open cockpit and uncovered wheels. I think the same that Calixto, here in spain we were a lot of talk about this specs, wheels sizes, weights, and the presence of Jan Sejkora in Spain race, we realized that they are right, 8" wheels, very low body position, low frontal area. This technical specs are probed that are the fastest. It would be interesting to see head to head race a sejkora soapboxe (or another c4) with a 20" wheel close cockpit "cartie".
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Sept 23, 2011 15:51:46 GMT
It would be interesting to see head to head race a sejkora soapboxe (or another c4) with a 20" wheel close cockpit "cartie". So would I. I think you might get a shock. All other things being equal, 16" wheels would be quicker than 20" because they are lighter and would have a smaller frontal area, but that would be offset by the wider rims and tyres you seem to be using. 20" is by far the more common choice in the UK because they are much easier to find, have a much bigger choice of tyres available and are very cost effective.
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