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Post by UK Gravity Sports Asscociation on Oct 13, 2010 20:50:23 GMT
Hi Please excuse the rather pesimistic thread title, but I'd like to find out what, if any, role people would like UKGSA to fulfill & how this might be achieved. Having logged myself in as admin and tinkered about abit, it seems approx 40 forum members have logged in in the last 6 months, with 20 regular forum members in the last 30 days....... Ukgsa has not really functioned since a dearth of commitee members at the 2007 AGM (see seperate thread....) Since it was formed (Febuary 2004) we've put on a significant number of events & supported a few affiliates to run their own. Its great to see how the soapbox calendar has swelled in the last few years, but dissapointing to see events such as Eastborne & White Air come & go. The web hosting for this website & forum is due for renewal in may 2011 & (having paid for it for the last couple of years) I'm trying to gauge if it's worth renewing. The forum may have a place as a poular meeting place for us gravity junkies, or I may be talking to myself and no-one will miss it, given the other gravity sports forums out there....? Again, the ukgsa.org domain name is well known, and well linked to, so may be a shame to loose those connections with the gravity community, both home & abroard. We could even go the whole hogg & try to re-form, but history suggests this will not be easy. Please give me your thoughts, Ian Round
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Post by leew on Oct 14, 2010 17:37:50 GMT
I feel that the UK needs a 'general' soapbox forum and this is currently the closest we have. If it was to disappear then I would consider to setting one up myself but would appreciate donations in order to cover expenses such as the hosting.
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Post by team-art on Oct 14, 2010 18:01:34 GMT
Hi Ian, Relatively new to gravity sport (first events this year), but I like the forum, design/layout clear and easy to use. It's "a UK" forum so useful for all events nationally and the soapbox/sidecar side seems to be ticking along and gaining some new members?
Perhaps I'm being a bit thick, (don't answer that) but I'm not sure what you're asking/saying?
Are you saying there is not enough people using the forum to justify the cost? Does it needs more/some income?
Or are you asking what people want UKGSA to do regards running events?
Or all of the above?
Cheers Rich
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Post by peasnbarley on Oct 14, 2010 18:03:03 GMT
I agree with Lee, UKGSA provides the forum the cartie boys use to throw ideas about and have a bit of banter. Closing down UKGSA would be a bit like shutting the local Cartie Social Club. Do please try and keep things going if you can. Scotland has the Scottish Cartie Association to help develop the sport and I wonder in my ignorance what England, Wales & Ireland would have if UKGSA was to close down?
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Post by shutz on Oct 14, 2010 18:03:45 GMT
I completely agree. Personally I would be disapointed if this would fade into ether. As a realatively new member the forum is a great place to discuss events, designs etc.. and the community is superb. I was wondering if there were a national series (rather than a number of seperate events that results in differing specifications required) that the UKGSA could oversee, so that events can be affillated to it. It would be great if there was a must do event possibly cadwell has that title or belchford from what i can see in England or the CSE in Scotland. If this has been done in the past i appoligise like i said im new here but i thought i would give my 2p's worth. I do realise, having been involved in local events. that putting on events is flippin hard work and that for events to work you are heavily reliant on volunteers. So perhaps a call to arms is required.....
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Post by peasnbarley on Oct 14, 2010 18:17:38 GMT
Aye shutz and sorry for being slow modifying my post, you overtook me there and got in first. Story of my life! I just wanted to say volunteers are crucial to any event but of little point having them if the cartie boys don't turn up.
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Post by gareth on Oct 15, 2010 11:31:28 GMT
When I got interested in the idea of soapbox, the UKGSA was one of the first places on the net I found and the forum has been excellent for chatting to established cartie racers and gaining ideas and knowledge.
UKGSA could be used to really help develop additional events around the UK, especially with the loss of Eastbourne and White Air. But like you say, you'd need a dedicated committee.
It would be a shame to lose the site but I have to wonder where all the skateboarders and lugers have gone? How has it dried up so much in those forums?
I have noticed a general decrease in postings on a number of forums in a number of things I'm interested in: F1, radio controlled stuff etc and I think part of the issue is that forums just aren't as popular as they used to be.
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Post by UK Gravity Sports Asscociation on Oct 15, 2010 15:07:53 GMT
Thanks for the feedback so far folks :-) Team-art, I'm not really keen to drop the site or forum, but needed reasuring that it is worthwhile continuing (which it seems to be !) Yes, specifically, I was asking what/how events should be organised & how we make the sport more accessable. We founded ukgsa to try and organise a national race series for luge, skatebaord, gravity bike /sidecar, soapbox, dirtsurfer or owt else that goes down hills without an engine (eg in-line skates, wheel-suits in an austrian stylee etc etc) & also to provide practice sessions (aka freerides) for the competitors & thoses who are less competitive Indeed, the lugers & skaters seem to have faded (who can blame them) since ukgsa have not put on events for them (or anyone else for that matter). National rules for luge / skate / gravity bike are standadrised across the world and there is a world series (see www.igsaworldcup.com/ ) and the draft national rules were an attemp to lead soapbox down the same road (no pun :-) ) but I readily acknowledge the practicality of adopting such stringent regulations. Another main aim of ukgsa is to make or hobby as safe as possible for the competitors (and safe as houses for spectators) whilst accepting that accidents happen & indeed are part of the fun / spectactle of throwing ourselves down hills ! Indeed Belchford moved to large square bales lining the whole course at my request because we were becoming increasingly concerned (and excited !) by the increases in speed each year & the number of spectators attending the event (only so many folk can 'hide' behind a round bale positioned every 30 yards or so, and marshalling was becoming a nightmare.....) My vision for ukgsa has always been as a sanctionong body, to oversee events, both from a H & S / 3rd party liabillity insuranc & rules persepective, we only ended up directly running events because we managed to obtain the venues & no-else seemed prepared to pick up the ball. To provide expertise, communication and a focus (including PR) to advise and assist event organisers. Its not realistic (given the geography) for ukgsa staff (if there were any ) to organise the actual events on a national basis. That requires local knowledge & to be on site for weeks before the event ! Any suggestions on how we might initially finance such a thing ? ultimately it would/ should become self financing, but whilst the concept is built up & while competitor numbers grow to a sustainable level, some initial capital would be required.....we have talked about filming and a tv franchise in the past, but without a suitable race format (time trial isn't very photogenic ) and an event to film initially, it's rather a chicken & egg situation Again, I have to acknowledge the rather difficult relationship between lugers/ skates etc towards soapboxes, which ultimately derives from a percived loss of 'hill-time' if there are many competitors trying to get down the hill as many times as possible in one day. The obvious solution is to have a venue for a whole weekend, with one day for soapboxes & the other for luge / skate etc. This dilutes the costs whilst maintaing as happy realtionship & providing variety for spectators (and also makes the course set-up/clean down seem so much more return for your efforts) Anyway, I've banged on enough about where we might go with this, so please continue with advice / suggestions & we might just get enough committed folk together in one place (plus, maybe, web-cam of the meeting?) to try and re-form for 2011, which is my ultimate ambition
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Post by team-art on Oct 15, 2010 19:01:45 GMT
Hi, Thanks for the clarification. And thanks very much for the forum and retaining it! I appreciate you're trying to do what you think is best for all gravity sports but my personal stance (for soapbox) is whenever I hear/see the words... "national rules", "sanctioning body" I'm out of here! I'd like to make it clear I don't speak for anyone else! That's only my personal opinion. "Sanctioning body" to me implies by definition.....: "authoritative permission or approval, authority confirming or ratifying". That's the last thing I want for soapbox racing! Not keen on national rules either. Who's rules? By all means help ,advice &assistance etc,(all the nice bits and there were lots of them)YES. Sanctioning :No. .....More rules: No. Trying to be more positive, and constructive. For now why not ignore the Soapbox side (most seem happy to just have the use of a national forum,for now) and soapbox racing appears to be gaining popularity anyway with/without UKGSA assistance. Concentrate on the Lugers/Skates and Bike. Try to organise a large event just for them! Try to organise a self financing event to get them back on board (no pun intended). Perhaps one reason Lugers/Skaters/Bike don't use the forum is because "their" forum has become a Soapbox forum and that's a different sport? Get them back first via an event, see where it takes you, then go from there! Cheers Rich
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Post by peasnbarley on Oct 15, 2010 22:12:56 GMT
Team-art has hit it on the head about heading off in the other direction when organisations start talking about controlling bodies and all the dreaded words they use. When SCA was set up I remember Stephen Hall being quite adamant that it was not and never would be a governing body. I believe what is perhaps needed is a Nationally recognised body to which regional clubs and Associations can be affiliated in order to establish their own credibility. Names like UKGSA and SCA is usually all most people outside the gravity racing world need to hear to give them the impression that these are official bodies that oversee the conduct of events. That is not to say the National Body should, or could exert demands on affiliated clubs or Associations. The Scottish Cartie Association is the place to go for anybody in Scotland attempting to run their own event. When I applied to Castle Forbes to obtain consent for an event I Introduced Stephen as Stephen Hall, Chairman of the Scottish Cartie Association and I am sure this gave credibility to the application. With SCA all that is needed now as Stephen put it is 'An Event in a Box' everything an organiser would need to hold an event, all in one place. The objective to get more premium class events into the calendar. The cartie boys already seem to have a group of organisers working together informally and equipment travels to various events on a you scratch my back basis. Distance, reliability and transport costs are always going to be the problem. I don't see quite how UKGSA could organise such a thing and even if they could how this would help groups in Scotland because of the distance, logistics and cost. However the name UK Gravity Sports Association (UKGSA) is invaluable as a 'Figurehead/Body' and the UKGSA Forum is needed because it is the only talking shop we have. What Rich said about forgetting about the cartie racing is valid in one sense but if you were to do as he suggests there would be no reason for the cartie fraternity to claim affiliation to the UKGSA because for us there would be no credibility gain by so being. Also what credibility would the UKGSA have if claiming to be a gravity sports Association they did not have cartie racing under their wing?
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Post by Organgrinder on Oct 16, 2010 20:21:42 GMT
Ian,
It's good to see lots of support for the forum and perhaps that's all the majority of people actually need at the moment from the UKGSA. Although there are no "National" rules for soapbox we all seem to be able to race where we want to without the need for major modifications - it seems that organisers have pinched the best bits from one anothers rules during the last two or three years and that harmony between rules for events is happening by a gradual process of osmosis, which has to be a good thing. This has no doubt been helped by the chat that goes on in the forum.
Could a simple system be devised that would allow people to make a modest payment to contribute to the running costs? I know Belchford Events have set up a paypal account and perhaps UKGSA could do the same so that we could all make an annual payment of a few quid to keep things going? I would certainly be happy to make a small contribution.
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Post by peasnbarley on Oct 16, 2010 22:54:04 GMT
Organgrinder wrote: all make an annual payment of a few quid to keep things going? Here steady on there, a few quid! First the 'B' Banks, then the Government now it's the UKGSA. But yes why not indeed however would it not be more sensible to pay an annual fee for an official affiliation, rather than paying a few quid to just keep things going? If there were to be a fee for association to the UKGSA who would be expected, or required to pay? The Competitors, The Teams, Event Organisers, Other Associations? Assume the cartie fraternity were quite happy to pay, what would the lads say if other groups were not interested? To be honest I would like to hear Stephen Hall's views before I decide because he knows much more about what has gone on in the past regarding Gravity Sports. However if all that is required is a bung to keep the Forum going I am quite happy to contribute.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Oct 18, 2010 10:42:17 GMT
Quite a lot to take in here, so I'll just start with a couple of points about the web site and forum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but UKGSA web site ( ukgsa.org) and the forum ( ukgsa.proboards.com) are not really linked. The forum lives on the ProBoards.com free forum host, and the web site is hosted by streamline.net. Even if the ukgsa.org domain is not renewed when it expires in May 2011, the forum will still continue at zero cost. People will still find it because it is linked to by the Gravity racing metafeed on scottishcarties.org.uk, which publishes the postings via the RSS feed I hacked together about a year ago (which, I suspect, is a contributing factor to the increasing number of soapboxers here). The forum is quite active now with cartie and sidehack discussions. All the skaters seem to be on forum.lushlongboards.com/The main web site, however, is a bit out of date and static. It would be more use if it were kept up to date. Probably the most useful thing to do for soapbox racers would be maintain an up to date links page and calendar of events.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Oct 18, 2010 12:01:15 GMT
Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to keep the web site / forum stuff separate. I'm not convinced that there is a need for a "sanctioning body" for soapbox racing. There are, at the last count, over 30 different soapbox races taking place in the UK and Ireland this year. Nearly all of these are community based events, and they have all developed their own set of rules to fit their particular aims and circumstances. Some are relatively slow novelty push cart races and others are for full on speed freaks, with every possible variation in between. The vast majority have been set up and run with no input whatsoever from the UKGSA or any other organisation. It's difficult to see what the UKGSA can do that would benefit any of these events other than publicising them on ukgsa.org, and even then some might not actually want their profile raised to that degree. Whilst there might seem to be an advantage from organising a multi event insurance policy to cut costs for each event, I think there would be significant resistance from event organisers if it also implied a requirement to comply with an (as yet non-existent) standard build specification. To suggest that there should be a standard cartie tech' spec' is to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of grass roots soapbox racing in this country. The way the SCA set up our Championship this year was simply to take the results from existing events and award points for positions to come up with an overall winner. Each event remained independent and there was no "sanctioning" involved. We still loaned out kit though and, where requested, gave what help and advice we could. We've also provided a forum for teams and event organisers to share information and helped to publicise events to help get more competitors. This approach seems to be working as there are more events in planning for next year and some other potential events being investigated. This is happening not by top down control but by bottom up growth. It might not benefit the SCA much in financial terms, but it achieves the aim of "encouraging and promoting cartie racing in Scotland" whilst leaving control of the events themselves in the hands of the most appropriate people - the communities and the competitors.
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Post by UK Gravity Sports Asscociation on Oct 27, 2010 21:35:52 GMT
Hi Much to think about over the winter And thankyou, all, who have taken the time to repy to this thread! Stephen is quite right to point out the details of how ukgsa.org & the proboard forum are currently hosted, 'scuse my over-simplification in my original post Certainly, I take on-board the feelings regarding "sanctioning" , "governing" etc. and agree that, by gradual osmosis, the cross-compliance of current rules is good for everyone. I think the primary purpose of the website & forum should/ is the sharing of information (potential venues, how to pitch to landowners etc etc) & safety (cue : yawn) Personally, safety is the biggie. as the various methods of throwing oneself down a hill become heavier and the speeds become higher, the kinetic energy involved rapidly increases but Not in a linear fashion. As far as I know, there have been very few significant injurys in soapbox racing ;D but, I am concerned that it might not stay this way. There is a fundamental non-comprehension in some quarters about how much a mass travelling at, say, 50mph, contains in terms of destructive energy, should things go awry. My concern is not so much for competitors (me being one, I should point out) but for spectators. Should one of them be injured, however 'random' the incident, our hobbies are going to get an awfully bad press and it may well be the death knell for getting use of private land, which would be a tradgedy for what is a fab, fun pastime ! The website badly needs updating but I don't have the neccessary skills to do so. The ukgsa archive has a potential venues list as long as your arm (which sadly dis-counts Chew reservoir due to the road turning to gravel, with drainage bars, half way down) but I hesitate to put such info on the net as history suggest folk will turn up and ride / drive such places, pernamently scuppering any chance of gaining permission for an organised event there Hence my will to form a small group to further our collective aims, I believe , of more events and a united public face? Do we want an events orgainser to put together a championship? Should finding someone to do this be an aim? I like the idea of having 'practice' weekends, no timing or official racing (ofcourse folk will always have their "after you, race 'yer" moments ) but there is no prospect of this currently, other than the rather dubious 'outlaw' or 'gureilla' goings on, which, whilst having done them myself in the past, before anyone calls me a hypocryte, experience tells us they can be problematic, both to event organisers and the protanganist themselves. I'm really coming across as a kill-joy here arn't I? which wasn't my intention at all. my apologies, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from....?
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Oct 28, 2010 9:25:26 GMT
I offered some time ago to revise the UKGSA web site to make it easier to update so that you and indeed anyone else with the right access could do so without the requirement for any special skills or software. That offer still stands. There isn't really much effort involved in organising a championship if you just bolt it on to existing events as we do with the SCA Championship. All it is really is a simple statistical exercise to add up the points, then buy some trophies and hand them out. The "rules" are pretty simple and don't specify anything about the carties themselves, leaving that up to the individual event organisers. They remain in control of their own events, but benefit from having a pretty much guaranteed level of entries from people wanting to get championship points. That means we avoid having to use words like "sanctioned", "affiliated", etc, and don't get bogged down with endless discussions about construction rules. Every event gets to write their own rules as appropriate for their course, circumstances and objectives.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 4, 2010 15:04:13 GMT
CSEx2011 sold out in 48 hours earlier this week, and the event is still 7 months away. If you needed proof that there is a demand for high profile "top end" events, then there it is.
Maybe the UKGSA should consider organising something similar?
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carnuts
Beginner
If it don't use oil or grease, then it ain't a sport.
Posts: 18
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Post by carnuts on Dec 21, 2010 17:49:15 GMT
I'm not new to carting, haven taken part in the 1ST Red Bull Soapbox Race in Leeds 2001, but I am new to the ukgsa. Please keep this site going, because as races are announced then there are many guys who will start building with no where to ask. I am in the south west (Poole) and would like to help in the search for a hill in this area and to help putting on a event.
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Post by UK Gravity Sports Asscociation on Dec 21, 2010 21:18:06 GMT
Cool That (Red Bull, Roundhay park 2001) was my first soapbox / gravity sports event too Will see if I can dig out some pics. We crashed & burned ( I wasn't driving, lol) but it gave us a 3 wheeled chassis to develop at Dalby in November 2001, and introduced us to the guys who ran the Highland Wheels Extreme (aka Aviemore, aka Cairngorm Soapbox Extreme ) which we built a gravity bike for. The rest is history..... Ukgsa was formed in January 2004 and fizzled out/mothballed in mid 2007, hopefully to rise like the Phoenix in 2011? ?? The website is a little (lol) out of date so please treat any (soapbox) rules with the contempt they deserve & base your decisions upon the individual event rules that you hope to attend
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