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Post by team-art on Jan 8, 2011 13:33:39 GMT
An organised event is not immune from accidents. It would be naive of us all to think a serious accident can't/won't happen even at a well organised official event.
Anyway, ukigrf, as Charlie says get yourselves up to the Border Bogie Challenge May 21st, I can guarantee you will receive a warm welcome. There's also a very sensible clause in the rules........................
"3. Bogies that the scrutineers believe to be safe and fit to take part but which do not meet all of the construction criteria will, at the scrutineers’ discretion, be allowed to take part but will only be eligible for the non-race prize(s)."
If you're interested in taking part but have any doubts/questions give us a shout.
Cheers Rich
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 8, 2011 14:36:18 GMT
An organised event is not immune from accidents. It would be naive of us all to think a serious accident can't/won't happen even at a well organised official event. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. The point is that, with all the proper precautions in place, the organisers can prevent some potential accidents (e.g. close the road to prevent collisions with other road users), provide measures to reduce the severity and likelihood of other incidents (e.g. protective padding of roadside furniture, limit the number of participants, provide on site first aid, etc), get insurance to protect themselves financially against third party claims and, if necessary, be able to make a decent job of defending themselves against any negligence claims by demonstrating that a competent safety plan was in use. I'd be extremely uncomfortable running a race on the basis described on UK Illegal Gravity Racing Federation's web site, as the legal and financial exposure of the organisers is collossal. I do have a suggestion that might help, however. Presumably the UKIGRF will want to have good relations with the local police. As a courtesy, and to avoid unpleasant surprises, it would be a good idea for them to inform the police in advance of their plans and the time, date and venue of all planned runs. If, as they seem to believe, there are no legal or public order issues, then the police will be pleased to receive the information and will take it as a demonstration of the UKIGRF's good faith. === BTW: A bit of background that might interest you - the "scrutineer's discretion" clause, along with the majority of the rest of the Border Bogies rules, were originally from the rules for the Catterline Cartie Challenge. The two rule sets are still essentially the same. There is a similar provision in the rules for Cairngorm Soapbox Extreme;
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df
Beginner
Posts: 17
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Post by df on Jan 8, 2011 15:18:55 GMT
Gravity Racing and the Law. If Ian/UKGSA wants to move this please do so. I hope that others will comment and contribute to improve collective understanding. This is my own (laymans) basic assessment of key bits of the law in England as it relates to the current discussion about public roads. It is written in plain English. It is Work in Progress and it is not in any way qualified legal opinion. I do not know anything specific about ASBOs, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish law or local byelaws. I am still researching a)construction aspects (brakes, reflectors etc.) b) luges, skateboards and similar small-wheel machines c) towing gravity machines. I am aware of the US Gravity scene from cousins in CA. For our American friends I must point out that while our laws are broadly similar to yours there is a strong 'safety culture ' here and we are a small crowded country with small roads and lots of cars and lorries. We too have local laws ('byelaws') as well as national law categorised as 'criminal' or 'civil' (being sued) With the latter, there are differences over legal costs (here, the loser pays all). So called 'no-win, no fee' arrangements are now allowed so it is getting easier for ordinary folk to sue. Organised gravity events on private or public land or authorised closed public roads have a fairly standard formula based on the contract/ agreement with the landowner/authority, health and safety law and the general duty of care etc. Hence, Public Liability Insurance; competitors waivers/ indemnity forms; safety rules and precautions (bales, tyres, first aid etc) as part of the formal risk assessment. All this is for the landowner/authority to largely guard against liability in civil law so that primary liability to the public would lie with the organiser. Organisers in turn make participants responsible for themselves, hence the indemnity/waiver forms and why children are treated differently. The criminal law would really become relevant in the event of injury or death arising from reckless or negligent action or omission. Public Roads. Is a gravity machine a 'cycle'? Probably, but it may also be a 'carriage'. A bit surprising but logical if you think about it that much of the law is old, predating not only mass car ownership but bicycles themselves. Early 'bicycles' had no cranks or pedals so even gravity cycles are not new. Also bear in mind that we are talking about gravity - soapboxes, 2-man sidecars/trikes/quadricycles, bicycles as well as modern luges, skateboards etc and any ingenious hybrid imaginable. What criminal law is relevant? Is being on the public road individually different to being part of a group or racing? As has already been said on the forum, the police have wide general powers to deal with (ie stop, fine, prosecute etc) issues causing nuisance, risking public safety. obstruction etc as well as powers under road traffic law re speeding, dangerous behaviour etc. So as a rule of thumb I would suggest that a single machine properly made and driven within the speed limit on a quiet country road is legal and that there is no legal requirement for car-type insurance. The same may apply to a small number of machines doing the same thing as this is more or less the same as a cycle club meeting/outing, but because it stays in one place, the possibility of nuisance is increased. However, as gravity machines need to be delivered and recovered usually by car or van. the possibility of obstruction. safety or nuisance offences increases with numbers and duration. Superimposed on this 'local' aspect are any byelaws. Modern ones may regulate say skateboards while old but still current ones may regulate, even ban, cycles or carriages. Next there are specific cycle or similar laws. The tolerance line seems to be drawn a) at races or time trials etc b) if anyone gets hurt c) at being on pavements etc (totally illegal). The RTA 1988 (Scottish Carties post) is relevant and seems to be similar in effect to the Cycle Racing Regulations (1960?) which vex the cycling community. Essentially, if you are racing you have to tell the local police in advance and do whatever they tell you. There is a huge range of official reactions from relaxed to stringent so what is true in Scotland or Devon is different from Yorkshire. I venture to suggest that 'racing' has a fairly broad interpretation (running against each other or against the clock; overtaking each other perhaps?) and is a matter of fact (what it appears to be) not semantics (what you call it to avoid being accused of racing). One website 'Bike for All' suggests that (I paraphrase the last bit of the section called 'pedalling furiously') that cycles are carriages and that under old laws the penalty for injuring anyone through racing, recklessness or neglect is up to 2 years in jail. More immediate is the recent sad case of a cyclist who killed a 17 year old girl in Bristol and there was a similar case a few years ago of a cyclist who killed a pensioner (in South Wales I think.The cyclist in the former case was heavily fined (£3200) while the relatives of the victims thought manslaughter would have been a more appropriate charge. The newspaper did not report on award of costs, compensation or parallel civil action. Civil Action. I believe that I recall the case referred to by Woody, of a cyclist who damaged a car and not only could not be sued but the car driver was held responsible. I am still looking for detail on this as it seems to turn the law on its head. Is it possible that the court took the view that the car driver could have done more?. I suspect that a case involving injury or death would have a different outcome. In general, if someone suffers avoidable loss or damage to property or bodily injury because of the action or inaction of another person they can sue. My understanding is that 'insurance' whether as a legal requirement for a car under the RTA or privately for a cycling or say, pet -related incident perhaps as an extension to a household policy on one hand and 'liability' on the other are separate issues. If you are found liable and the risk is not insured, you must still pay. The figures involved could easily dwarf any fine. Hence my previous forum comment about selling the family home, though the sum could be recovered by deduction from wages (Garnishee I think is the term). I think I am correct in saying that if someone is convicted in court, a civil action is likely to succeed as the burden of proof is lower (balance of probabilities, rather than beyond reasonable doubt) Other things I have learnt so far re cycling and presumably gravity machines on public roads. I have no legal right to flag motorists down to alert them to gravity machines I have no legal right to place roadside warning signs. The police can levy fixed penalty tickets but not put points on my drivers licence. DF
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 8, 2011 15:32:42 GMT
df Thanks for that - a very informative post, which matches my understanding of the situation. I'd just add one small piece of information passed on to me by my police contact for Cairngorm Soapbox Extreme. When you are recovering a cartie by towing it, strictly speaking it becomes a trailer and should display the number plate of the towing vehicle, show brake lights and indicators, etc, and comply with all the other rules applying to the towing of trailers on a public highway.
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Post by leew on Jan 8, 2011 17:23:46 GMT
Regarding signage, when the cycling club I am part of holds a race we have to place warning signs next to the road along with direction arrows and have never had any problems from the police regarding the signage. What law would one be breaking by placing a warning sign? is the sign litter?
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 8, 2011 17:36:35 GMT
leew I suspect you are talking about a slightly different thing. For Cairngorm and Catterline we are required, as a condition of the road closure, to put up notices two weeks in advance and then proper "Road Closed" signs on the day. I suspect the signs your cycle club put out are part of a similar condition. However, I don't have the right to just put a load of warning signs up and say we're having a race.
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Post by drscope on Jan 8, 2011 20:54:19 GMT
Regarding signage, when the cycling club I am part of holds a race we have to place warning signs next to the road along with direction arrows and have never had any problems from the police regarding the signage. What law would one be breaking by placing a warning sign? is the sign litter? Again I'm NOT familiar with UK law. Here in the states, placing a sign, or even a cone on the side of the road is concidered a traffic device. As such placing a traffic device without a permit is against the law. So if we place a cone for our finish off the road surface, or stop traffic without a permit, we can get snagged IF an officer wants to make an issue of it.
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Post by peasnbarley on Jan 8, 2011 22:51:18 GMT
df: The reason I understood a gravity cartie not to be classed as a bike, cycle etc was/is : Carties do not have a set of British Standards such as BS6102 soon to be superseded by new CEN standards as applied to bicycles. Therefore carties don't have a classification which specifically places them within the Road Traffic Act.
I
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 8, 2011 23:31:26 GMT
Getting a little off topic here, and perhaps a little too pedantic, but "Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002" defines a pedal cycle as; Pedal Bicycles (Safety) Regulations 2003 defines a bike as; The former definition sounds pretty much like a cartie to me and, since that is the only document that specifically references the Road Traffic Act (1984), I take it that is the one that would be used when dealing with offences under the RTA. My reading of this is that a cartie counts as a cycle under the RTA and is subject to the restrictions of the act, but is not a cycle under the bicycle safety regulations and so is not subject to the BS / CEn rules. However, I think this "dancing on the head of a pin" is irrelevant. I don't believe for a moment that the police will scratch their heads and say "well, since it's not strictly either a cycle or a car, we'd better just let you go" after you've lost it on a corner and ended up under a bus.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 10, 2011 11:03:30 GMT
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 12, 2011 17:55:58 GMT
ukigrf (I hope you're still reading this forum) OK - so I've had a closer look at the hill that your group are proposing to run, which is the B6451 (aka Farnley Lane) running down to the Lindley Wood Reservoir just north of Otley. According to my figures, it's around 1920m in length with a drop of 169m, which is close enough to your figures to be not worth arguing about. That gives you an average gradient of 1:11, approaching 1:5 in places. My calculations show that a typical cartie could easily reach speeds of between 50 and 60mph, and a well made one with good aerodynamics could reach 70mph. There are several things that ring alarm bells here. 1) There are two junctions with minor roads which you will be approaching at high speed. 2) There are some significant bends that will be approached at high speed. 3) You admit on your own website that none of your group have even built a cartie yet. The hill is steeper than Cairngorm and has the potential to be much faster. It is not, in my opinion, a suitable hill for novices in their first ever build even under properly controlled conditions. I'd be prepared to bet that nearly all of you will turn up with untested machines that you only finished the night before, and yet you're planning to leap in them and set off en-masse down a 70mph hill. You want to "meet up and race together, share stories of builds, crashes, overtaking manoeuvres and then relive them for the following months". I think you're certainly going to get the crashes, but there is a strong possibility that you won't be reliving anything. Seriously - do not underestimate this hill or the challenges you face in building a cartie capable of handling it safely. This is not trivial. To attempt it with no experience and with significant uncontrolled risks is foolhardy in the extreme.
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Post by jerm1386 on Jan 12, 2011 20:57:48 GMT
UKIGRF, I am not trying to stop your group from racing, but I would echo catterlinecarties' opinion on the choice of your first hill.
What you have picked out would be a good hill once you've tweaked your kart to the point where you can control it easily both in terms of steering and in terms of brakes. Maybe have some time to do a few runs down shorter, not-so-steep hills and refine things. when I first joined the MISFITS, my first run (along with a few others') was down a similar hill in terms of steepness, but only half as long. A few racers whose first day it was have never raced with us again because that hill scared the living crap out of us in our new virgin karts. here a good fun hill is 4% (1 in 25), a good race hill is 6% (i in 17), and a real white-knuckler is above 10% (i in 10). I've raced down hills that have long 1:5 sections in them and believe me, you'll wonder who put the engine in your kart because of how fast it will accelerate.
So keep that hill on your schedule. Just make sure to move it back enough that you're confident handling your kart at speed. And the first time you do run it should not be for points. it should be a funrun where people don't feel obligated to go balls-to-the-wall or even attempt it at all.
Last but not least: before you do run it, make sure the cameras are rolling. it promises to be extremely fun once your karts have some miles on them, and if I ever visit the UK it's the kind of hill I'd want to run
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Post by azuma on Jan 12, 2011 23:38:59 GMT
I have to agree with what has been posted above. As catterline carties knows, I have said enough about keeping the sport as safe as possible and minimise serious accidents, without sterilising it and removing the fun. Cairngorm 2010 was an example of good course management, good carts, but still providing enough thrills for the drivers and spills for the spectators without any real injuries. Every single kart builder out there thinks they are building the next world beater with their first cart, but there are very few that have! Listen to these guys they know exactly what they are on about and do not want to spoil anyones fun. First time out in any cart is like nothing else you will have tried, the adreneline will be pumping, the redmist will descend and you will just want to go for it, regardless of what game plan you had for keeping it safe. Its just human nature. Remember, its a home built machine, regardless of how well they have been built (and there some extremely well built carts), but you cannot set up for a high speed run in the garage, without some testing first. Keep it safe, keep it clean and you will be able to share a few beers afterwards, sharing and exaggerating your best bits.
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Post by peasnbarley on Jan 13, 2011 11:29:18 GMT
ukigrf: Caterlinecarties knows his stuff when it comes to analysing a hill and is experienced in assessing potential dangers and risks. He does after all organise the longest and most severe official cartie run in the country so for heavens sake take it on board. jerm1386: Perhaps nearer to your cause than most that post here advises against you running that particular hill and thinks the risk is too high. I hadn't realised you were on your first build and thought you were an experienced but disillusioned cartie fanatic attempting to de-regulate the sport. If you have yet to experience the rush of your first competitive hill you are in for quite a shock especially as you are determined to attempt it with the risk of oncoming traffic. You're not some silly kid that can't see any sense or take advice because their hormones are out of control; you are an adult so I can make you an offer that is actually unfair on the other cartie lads but well worth doing if it will help you to understand our position and bring you into the fold. I will give you a free entry into the Castle Forbes Gravity time Trials, arrange free accommodation over the weekend as well as buying you a drink and paying for your dinner on Saturday 7th May 2011. If your cart is not finished you can have a timed run in mine, and help out over the weekend while meeting all the cartie lads. If you have transport problems catch a bus to Aberdeen and I will pick you up at the bus station. You will be made very welcome provided ukigrf is not mentioned. ;D
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df
Beginner
Posts: 17
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Post by df on Jan 17, 2011 7:59:13 GMT
PeasnBarleys Kart represents many many hours of labour so his offer is very generous.
If UKIGRF are still watching, there is serious concern for your welfare from both sides of the Attlantic.
On the other hand, I do not know you from Adam.
Hmm. Extreme hill with side roads. New drivers . New Kart. Why not use a coffin as the bodywork to save time?
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 18, 2011 11:54:49 GMT
peasnbarley's offer is very generous indeed and I hope ukigrf accepts it in the spirit it was intended. It's a great opportunity to learn about soapbox racing and also sample some Scottish hospitality into the bargain. (Bring your serious drinking trousers).
I sincerely hope the ukigrf accepts the offer, and also accepts the criticism and advice given here and elsewhere. There are clear safety issues as well as massive legal and financial liabilities for anyone involved, but my main concern is for the potentially disastrous effect on properly organised soapbox races and on the perception of UK soapbox racing as a whole.
ukigrf's call to arms was posted on two other forums that I know of. On one the post was removed pretty much immediately - I can only presume that was done by the forum moderators. On the other forum the idea drew universal criticism and precisely the sort of knee jerk reaction to soapbox racing that we've been working to counter for years.
It is hard enough in the current "risk averse" climate to convince the authorities that soapbox racing can be carried out responsibly. There are a some utterly fantastic potential courses up here that I'm dying to try out, but we can't even get through the door because of the reflex "sorry - too dangerous" response. Imagine how much harder it'll be if they can point to ukigrf videos as an example of reckless and irresponsible soapbox racers. Now imagine what happens if they see the same carties at both ukigrf meets and SCA events. How can we credibly claim to be able to put on well run events with responsible competitors if they can clearly see the same teams hurtling down public roads, dodging the traffic and blatantly breaking the law?
A great many people have put a huge amount of work into getting various events going across the UK. There are some really top-notch races such as Belchford, Cadwell, Dalby Forest, Cairngorm, Richards Castle, etc, plus new ones being started all the time. Anyone who has organised a soapbox race will know how much work is involved, and I hope that anyone who values those events and respects that hard work would not want to jeopardise it all by being associated with the ukigrf or indeed anything that is likely to bring the sport into disrepute.
I'm not trying to be a killjoy here. Anyone who knows me will know that isn't what I'm like at all. I just don't want to see all that hard work p****d up the wall.
If ukigrf would like some help and advice on how to do things responsibly then the SCA would be only too pleased to help. But as it stands at the moment - nah, just not touching it with a barge pole. We really cannot afford to be associated with it in any way, and nor can we offer advice that may be construed as a warranty or official involvement.
The only advice I'd be prepared to give at present is that, as a courtesy and to avoid unpleasant surprises on the day, ukigrf should give the local police advance notice of their plans.
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Post by neils on Jan 18, 2011 22:56:22 GMT
Wow, just noticed this topic. Basically Health and Safety sucks but it could save your life and a lot of heartache. On the other hand it would not be great having a madcap race over a gentle/medium rated hill (i.e. not 50-60-70mph)with a grid of 20 carts. There is such a thing as a "Happening", illegal village events, usually annual that have existed for many years but Health & Safety deemed them un-insureable (if thats the term) so events just now miraculously "happen" keeping crazy traditions alive. I am sure there is something in the Scottish Borders where shop windows even get boarded up overnight in preperation for village wide "murderball" event. I mention this because it is known this is happening and people/police are aware, warned and prepared but there is no single body liable for anything. Unique maybe and probably not legally tested. I suppose its a bit of flash mob, but phone the polis first. (number withheld) As they used to say in "Hill Street Blues"..... " Let's be carefull out there"
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Post by peasnbarley on Jan 19, 2011 16:09:54 GMT
Neils: A great post and I think it sums up how most of us really feel with the ' If Only' but we shouldn't and can't. A village wide 'Happening' is something else and akin to a local pub Lock-In. A local community can and do get away with things individuals and outside groups certainly will not and quite rightly too. The activities proposed by the ukigrf and the inevitable bad press will put even village Happenings at risk. I am pleased in a way to note that ukigrf consider me to be an undesirable and have removed my name from their followers list. ;D However my offer to them still stands but as there are now only 8 places left my money is fairly safe.
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Post by drscope on Sept 14, 2011 22:29:51 GMT
3 pages of worrying over a group that NEVER built a car or put on an event!
These loosers just gave up and evaporated.
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