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Post by ukigrf on Jan 6, 2011 23:17:09 GMT
the police will charge you with endangering public safety.
that might only happen if there was actually any public about which there wouldnt be at the times of the meets and the locations and also if we were riding like dicks on the wrong side of the road, which we wouldnt.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 6, 2011 23:24:04 GMT
OK - so lets call them races instead, since that is the term you prefer.
Racing on a public highway is an offence under the Road Traffic Act.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 7, 2011 0:10:48 GMT
Look - we want to help here. I think you may have underestimated the potential problems you face, and you are setting yourself up for a world of trouble. Some of the people posting on this forum have a lot of experience in cartie racing, and it'd be worth listening to what they have to say.
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Post by UK Gravity Sports Asscociation on Jan 7, 2011 13:27:48 GMT
Hello :-) I believe Peasnbarley to be correct with his summary, the crucial follow up being, that yes, you would be sensible to insure yourself against 3rd party liability, but of course, without a risk assessment (which would give an outcome of needing a controlled environment (closed road), no insurance company would even provide a quote. and if the 'real' situation was hidden from then, the post incident investigation would soon leave you un-insured...... Also the link to Alford gravity racing site and that summary, complements my understanding of the situation. A acquaintance of mine races road bikes down the A1 and other public highways regularly. He has to be a paid up member of the cycle club organising the event and they (the cycle club) have to do risk assessments and have 3rd party liability insurance. But I understand these are issues ancillary to the ethos of what we are talking about, which is "can we meet up and ride down hills?" I believe, if we overlook the police assuming that more than 1 vehicle constitutes 'a race', then yes, we can (after all, you see other cars in-front / behind when driving your car......). What I (as ukgsa) was unhappy about was a direct link from a forum moderated by ukgsa, to a site I have issues with, and you have helpfully removed that conflict The absolute key point here, is if you have an accident / incident under the circumstances you propose, the whole gravity sports 'community' ( ) will find it harder to enjoy our 'sports' (lol) Totally understand why you don't want to get embroiled in organising 'events'. It's damn hard work, not always appreciated and involves going out on a limb from a liability aspect.......but can also be very rewarding to see the smiling faces on the finish line / podium / paddock Your site (I realise it's cut 'n paste) actively encourages contact while racing, which I think is the wrong way to go, even on a closed track/road. I also worry about mass starts and the consequences of an accident at the front of 'the field'. Ukgsa have allowed a few mass start 'free-ride' (read 'practice') runs in the past, but unless you're lucky and you have Marshall's that are really on the ball, you regularly get one competitor being hit by a following one, hence my position now of making a decision on max numbers allowed to run, before everyone lines up and asks if they can all go at once...... The most common place for this to happen (someone runs into the back of someone else) is AFTER the finish line. Gravity vehicles don't have brake lights and the following rider doesn't always realise how hard the vehicle in front is coming to a halt :-( Done it myself on a buttboard...... Anyway, don't want my post to be any longer so will leave it at that, for now Ian
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Post by gunnerhoots on Jan 7, 2011 14:34:31 GMT
Its a mine-field out there! But seriously ,as a new comer to the sport and the website I've been impressed with the knowledge and quality of the discussions (not too many block capitals/expletives and dodgy grammar and spelling that you get on some sites). It would be interesting to know if anyone has been stopped by the police while out in their cart and what the outcome was, or if anyone has been passed by a police car and they,ve shown no interest at all. Other posts have managed to cover any other point I wanted to make , and more authoritatively and eloquently as well. I'll look forward t meeting you all at events
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Post by grahamk on Jan 7, 2011 15:53:03 GMT
Hi Gummerhoots
I took my cartie out a few months ago. The garage where i keep it is about 1/4 mile from my house. As i have no way of transporting it to my house to work on it with out having to hire a van, i decided to run it at 3.00 in the morning when no cars would be about. I managed to get to within a stone throw from my house when i got pulled over. The police couldn't beleive what it was and just laughed while the other copper took a photo of his mate sitting on the front wheel. Sounds good but i dont think i could get away with doing this again, i think the cops must have had a good night or i feel they would have charged me with something.
Lesson learned
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Post by jerm1386 on Jan 7, 2011 18:54:54 GMT
It's a shame to see so much animosity towards underground soapbox. do keep in mind that the groups they're taking their rules from are from the US, where there isn't such a strong community of adults who participate in serious, organized soapbox (red bull doesn't count since it's more art than actual racing). Also keep in mind that the word 'Illegal' to describe underground soapbox originates to highlight the difference between underground soapbox and the cookie-cutter all-karts-look-the-same, straight-road, short-track, two-at-a-time All American Soapbox Derby. Our underground karts would be Illegal in their races, as would our rules. Hence 'Illegal'. Full disclosure: I'm a member of the Maryland MISFITS soapbox chapter. I understand that, yes, there's more legal protection if you have an organized event with insurance but a lot of groups in the US are less than a dozen people and we don't need any spectators, we want to race once (or more) every month with small fields. That's just too much money for insurance: I'm not independently wealthy. Like I said, there's not much of a legit gravity racing community here. If we had large turnouts it could be interesting but with large turnouts you can't have everyone race all at once, and that's half the fun. I know you have argued against it (all at once), but have you ever tried it? you really should sometime. I've raced in fields of up to 20 karts and it gets more exciting the more people you have (yes I have done solo runs, somewhere around 40. they're fun too but racing in a group is better still). contact doesn't usually become an issue for the trophy drives where people are more competitive (nobody's deliberately being stupid) as for cops, I've had a few experiences with them, none of them bad. Every time I've gotten to talk to them (including my uncle who was a cop and who has raced with us) they say there's not really a whole lot they could put us away for and that, no matter what they did, it would be a big pain in the butt for them because of all the paperwork. in fact, in one instance we were stopped by a cop in the middle of our East-Coast Challenge (with people from all across the US). We were in the middle of our day with 3 races left to go, we told the officer our planned locations, and the he let us keep going. The only thing they can really get us for is having a contest for speed on open roads. Some of the California underground soapbox racers had someone pull a civilian's arrest on them and had their karts impounded, but the cases got thrown out and the officer who first arrived on the scene actually advised the citizen against making the arrest. I know law enforcement in the UK is different than in the US, but that's just my experience sonce someone asked. Officers are good people trying to do their job, so if you aren't an ass making their day worse they won't make your life worse. Some officers have even volunteered to run radar on our karts and expressed an interest in participating! Bottom line would be if you don't want these guys to be doing their underground racing and (so you say) bringing down the reputation of the sport, hold monthly events and have a class where all drivers go at once. try it, you'll like it (i promise). Also, drive your karts (alone or in a group) on open roads every now and again, in traffic, no hay bales. It's a really neat feeling to realize that you've built a roadworthy vehicle on your own, driving on the same roads that most people drive, except you're by far more connected to the road. You have to know the slope, the road quality, you can't rely on soft suspension to smooth out the grinding of stones, sand, and gravel, you can use the whole lane in a way you can't in a motor vehicle, and your kart can handle in ways that no street-legal motor vehicle can. Of course, make sure your safety gear is up to the task, but after that just enjoy the road!
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Post by ukigrf on Jan 7, 2011 20:04:31 GMT
Today we decided after much debate on here that it would only be sensible and safe to remove the 'Rubbing is racing' rule. Whilst we except there is a risk of contact there is the potential for serious injury if we encouraged this.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 7, 2011 20:57:57 GMT
jerm1386, With respect, I think your interpretation is wrong. I see no animosity here - only a desire to protect the work we've put in over several years and help these guys get going on the wrong right foot. They've clearly been strongly influenced by what you guys are doing on the other side of the world and under different legal systems, but we're not complete bumpkins over here and have a lot of experience making events work within the law. Speaking as the Chair of the Scottish Cartie Association, I would agree entirely with the UKGSA posting above. I really have no problem whatsoever with people risking their own necks. The Darwin Awards always needs more candidates. As has already been established, there isn't much of a problem with people testing and running responsibly on public roads - I've even done it myself a few times. The problem comes with mass starts and races on public roads, and the danger that poses to other road users. Let's face it - accidents do happen. You may well think that everyone will be sensible and drive within their limits, but if there is anything I've learned over the years it's that any safety precaution that relies on the good sense of the driver is utterly pointless. Once the red mist comes down and the tunnel vision comes in, anything can happen. If an accident happens in which someone is seriously injured or - God forbid - killed, there will be an investigation by the police and, depending on their findings, prosecution of those involved. Public perception being what it is, that is going to reflect badly on all of us. The first reaction I get when approaching officials about setting up a cartie race is "that sounds very dangerous". I have to work hard enough as it is to counter that perception and convince them that we are not a bunch of cowboys, but if they have remembered press coverage of an illegal road race (illegal in actual law in the UK) that has gone badly wrong, then it's going to make it even harder to get properly run events off the ground. And I could really do without that.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 7, 2011 21:05:38 GMT
ukigrf That's a sensible step. We explicitly disallow contact at Cairngorm Soapbox Extreme, along the lines already used by the IGSA, and we limit the number of carties in any one heat to no more than 4. Even then, it's hard to avoid accidental contact at The Switch. You might also want to think about the name of your group. The semantic distinction that jerm1386 makes about being "illegal" in the sense of not following the rules of the AASBD isn't going to cut much ice over here and is likely to be seen as nothing short of an admission that you know you are breaking the law. Just imagine the conversation; "'ello 'ello 'ello, what's goin' on 'ere then?" "We're the UK Illegal Gravity Racing Federation and we're having a race" "Right son - you're nicked"
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Post by drscope on Jan 7, 2011 21:10:53 GMT
As an "Illegal/underground" soapbox racer in the U.S. I thought I would share some thoughts.
The SFVISBF in California has been racing for several years. My group, Maryland Illegal Soapbox Federation & Incline Trials Society (MISFITS) have been racing for 4 years.
The ILLEGAL aspect of this came from the fact that we DO NOT associate or comply with the rules of the Great American Soap Box Derby (GASBD).
The GASBD is limited to kids under 17 years of age. We allow NO ONE under 18.
Yes we run on open public roads. And yes there are any number of things which a police officer could charge us with if he wanted to ruin our day. We OFTEN have visits from the police during our events.
To date, no one has been charged. No officer has speciffically been able to point out anything we are doing that is illegal. At least not to the point where he wants to push the issue.
We do not have many organized gravity racing groups here similar to the groups you have in the UK.
I don't intend by any means to belittle or down grade your style of racing, but after running the way we do, your style is simply boaring.
And again, this is a difficult thought to pass along with out making folks angry, and that is NOT my intention! I totally respect the science and effort that goes into being competitive in your sport.
But that format is not for everyone. Nor is what we do. We have had several folks watch our videos and want to come race. Once in a car and on the hill, they realize this is not for them.
If this new "Illegal" group in the UK follows the guidelines which have been set up by SFVISBF and followed by AIGRF and several other groups around the world, they should have NO negative impact on your group or your events.
As long as they use their head and stay off your hills, they should in no way bring negative publicity to your group.
It's simply a different form of racing or riding.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 7, 2011 21:15:33 GMT
It looks like someone has called in the cavalry. With respect, I'm going to have to pick you up on one point you make. No officer has speciffically been able to point out anything we are doing that is illegal. I'm quite sure things are different where you are on the other side of the Atlantic, but racing on a public road in the United Kingdom is an offence, as is reckless driving and driving without due care and attention. === Correction: That should read Great Britain, not the United Kingdom. Road racing is permitted, with the proper permission being given, in Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man, which is how they can hold NW200 and the TT.
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Post by peasnbarley on Jan 7, 2011 22:33:58 GMT
I do not believe for a minute that any of our usual cartie lads are hostile, or looking for a stand off with another gravity racing group but are only concerned with what you lads are proposing to do. If what you proposed could be achieved with the laws and regulations we are stuck with you would certainly get your mass starts and I would be running with you. ;D However I do not believe you are a group at the moment because when I went on your site I was your first follower. The last time I looked there was another two one of which was not in this country. We have attempted to warn of the dangers you run on the road but there is another which has not been mentioned and that is incitement to break the law. Why do you think UKGSA was twitchy about a link to your site? You can eventually get fed up trying to convince regular cartie teams to join you and simply disappear to attract members elsewhere but in a legal sense you have left a lot of footprints, discussions on this site and they could be used to your detriment if a prosecution was ever raised against you. I know for a fact the police have viewed my site so I see no reason why they have not looked at this one as well. One of you said what we do is boring and to you that may well be the case but you have not raced at Cairngorm, or chased the clock at Border Bogies or the new event at Castle Forbes. The crack and banter could not be better between regular cartie teams and I hope you will at least give it a try and if it is not exciting enough for you take up some other form of racing to get your adrenalin rush.
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Post by drscope on Jan 7, 2011 22:47:37 GMT
Racing on the public roads is also illegal here! And there are several things we could be charged with.
The issue here is that we probably know what we could be charged with better then any police officer who is responding to a complaint, or just happens by during one of our runs.
They often show up with the belief that we have engines on our cars. Once they discover that is not the case, they have either been very interested in what we do, or they decide to leave before they have to do any paper work.
The law is the law and I really don't think there is much difference from one side of the pond to the other. If they want to push the issue they can make trouble for you.
A lot has to do with how you handle yourself when they do show up. We limit who has authority to speak from our group and we always make sure we give the utmost respect. Once they see we are not confrontational, they usually go on their way.
A few officers have come to watch our monthly races once they were made aware of them. And as Jerm pointed out, his uncle who is a cop has raced with us in the past.
I understand the concern you have that this group may harm your events. It's no different from motorized street racing having a bad influance on organised track racing.
But again I think if this new group does things the way they are done over here, there should be no ill effect on your events or your sport.
And if you do start to see bad things happening for you as a result, just let the other groups know and we'll give them enough grief that you won't have to!
MISFITS, SFVISBF, SCISR, NJUSBF, WUSS, PISS, VULGAR, LVISBF, AIGRF, are just a few of the groups running underground/illegal soap box. And NONE of them want anything to do with any group that causes trouble! Trouble for you is also trouble for us!
I think one of the best things they could do is remove the word "illegal" from their name if this is causing this much controversy already. It's been a problem for us as well,, but we are past the point of having to deal with it now.
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Post by ukigrf on Jan 7, 2011 23:09:40 GMT
peasnbarley - I/we, whatever you want to believe, are trying to come to some kind of middle ground and work with you guys to some extent. By stating you were the first follower of our/my blog and that I/we have left a foot print and that it could or would be used against me/us by the police is a very unsubtle and amateurish way of belittling our/my group and trying to stem the flow of interest that this post has clearly created. I/we am/are very disappointed.
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Post by peasnbarley on Jan 8, 2011 0:20:46 GMT
ukigrf: It is quite obvious that you lads are trying to reach some middle ground and that is great and very sensible. I did not follow your group to do anything other than to be informed. Neither I or any of the lads in our 'organised' cartie world want to or intend to belittle anybody. We cartie race because it is fun and a sport which in my experience is devoid of the usual nasty stuff found in other sports. Certainly my wish is first and foremost to protect what others have built up over a number of years. What you say is true to the extent that I and others want to stem the flow of interest in illegal cartie activity but I do not accept that anything I have said is in any way demeaning to you. What I stated regarding incitement to break the law is correct and was said for no other reason than it is a legitimate part of this discussion. I am not against you or out to do you down, only to try and get you to see and realise the risks you encouraging others to take. The posts from over the water indicate the police there have a degree of tolerance that I do not believe you will find in this country. I am sorry if my posts offended you but I have only told the truth as I see it.
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Post by ukigrf on Jan 8, 2011 0:47:35 GMT
peasnbarle: My last post was mainly meant as a bit of a joke, sorry, couldn't resist.
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df
Beginner
Posts: 17
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Post by df on Jan 8, 2011 8:00:21 GMT
I am impressed by the quality and restraint of this debate. Lets keep it that way .
Sorry if you feel that you (the 'illegals') are being lectured by killjoys and the gravity racing establishment. It is not up to me to stop you only to try to point out the possible consequences for you, participants and the gr community as a whole. You must decide and then we all have live with it.
If I can distill the issues there are 4 : First you have been very indescreet. Instead of quietly meeting up with a couple of mates in a remote place at an ungodly hour to run gravity machines separately you chose to invite unknown numbers to a contact 'race' (your word) via national websites. You cannot undo this. Second, the 'edgy' theme is likely to appeal to kids who may copy you. Thirdly the effect of any mishap on organised gravity sport. Fourthly, legal aspects of Gravity machines and the law as it relates to public roads.
I am no lawyer but have spent some time researching cycling etc law and have learnt quite a lot of stuff that is new to me Overall, it seems that Scottish Carties and Peasnbarley are on the right lines.(sorry Woody) Perhaps the most telling information comes from cycling mags and sites complaining hugely about Cycle Racing Regulations being applied differently around the country. I will make this a separate post tomorrow for those interested.
It may help if I explain that I have been involved with Gravity Sports for 8 years and looked at running a no frills club event at Dalby Forest. No way. DF
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Post by grahamk on Jan 8, 2011 10:27:16 GMT
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Post by peasnbarley on Jan 8, 2011 11:32:58 GMT
ukigrf: I have no problem with somebody speaking their mind or expressing their feelings. Pist'n'Broke's post is very sad and I am sure we will all think about the lad just as if we knew him personally because he was a cartie racer and as such part of an extended group. ukigrf please at least put your project on the back burner and stick with us at least for 2011. If you have never done so why not enter one of the Scottish events and brace yourself for some serious banter, fun and excitement.
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