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Post by leew on Nov 20, 2011 15:15:29 GMT
I've never ridden a side car and don't intend to but was wondering what is bad about having the sidecar on the right? I notice right handed sidecars have been banned in CSEx 2012 but any idea why?
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Post by azuma on Nov 20, 2011 16:33:20 GMT
Lee, there is nothing "wrong" with a right hand side side car, but unlike carties, bikes, boards etc, which are/tend to be symmetrical about the front to rear centre line, sidecar outfits are not. I understand where Stephen is coming from as the position of the sidecar and passenger can have a dramatic affect on handling. Since the majority of tight of fast corners are left handed (at CSE ), it makes sense for the sidecar and monkey to be on this side for cornering and stability. Yes there are right handers i.e. the entry to the switch and the at Allt Mor bridge. For the entry into the swicth the passenger is only hanging over the driver for a short period to get through the apex and possibly use his/her bulk as drag and from that point its back to to the sidecar to shift the weight out of the first apex and through the second. At Allt Mor the weight shift is not so great. Anyone disagree??
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Post by grahamk on Nov 20, 2011 16:39:59 GMT
This rule makes sidehack build specs more specific to Cairngorms than anywhere else with the passenger on the left as the switch is a right hand bend. I also notice they are allowed ballast, surley ther is more chance of a sidehack highsiding. They are also allowed to continue using a normal battery.
I know i am not speaking for myself as i have heard almost all cartie drivers saying the same thing (sidehacks should not race along side carties at the Cairngorms), With safety being such a big issue it looks like this has been overlooked or will they race seperatly for 2012. Dont think the driver or monkey would like to be hit with a plate mounted at the front of a cartie.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 20, 2011 17:52:18 GMT
Sidehacks will race alongside the carties unless we have enough of them to make it worth running them in their own heats. That was what we planned for CSEx2011 and would have done if half the sidehacks hadn't pulled out at the last minute.
Sidecars tend to be very light and need extra ballast low down to make them less skittish. They already have a lower weight limit than soapboxes.
Do you have any specific and meaningful safety concerns about racing sidehacks and carties together? Because I don't really see any major issues. At least - no more than having carties racing alongside carties.
I'm only aware of one righthand sidecar, and that was wrecked at CSEx2011. Left hand cars are better suited to the switch, as there is a tendency to drive the passenger into the apex of the corner.
Yes you're right about the batteries - I forgot to change that bit.
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Post by grahamk on Nov 20, 2011 18:10:55 GMT
The only issue i have is the team coming off and a cartie running into them. When i collided with Team cc in 2010, they done a 90 degree stop in the road and both were thrown out. Racing closer together as we will be, there is more chance of a cartie being right behind them when they get ejected. Hopefully by me posting these concerns about the carties and sidehacks, more people will be encouraged to put there views across on UKGSA rather than on Facebook.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 20, 2011 18:39:45 GMT
why would racing in sidecar only heats change that?
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Post by azuma on Nov 20, 2011 18:51:29 GMT
I enjoy racing against the sidecars, but as a spectacle sidecar "v" sidecar is something I would watch. I also agree with Stephen that a sidecar into another sidecar / expelled driver/monkey, would be no different to that of a cart. potentially a sidecar outfit could be heavier than a cartie.
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Post by grahamk on Nov 20, 2011 19:01:09 GMT
so if i come straight for you with my plate on the front, acting like a battering ram it wont bother you.
Ok this clears my conscince
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 20, 2011 19:01:37 GMT
To be honest I'd prefer sidecar only heats, because it would look better. But it's not really worth it if we only have 4 to start off with and then only two of them make it through practice & qualifying...
If we get a decent field - say 6+ still running on day 2, then they'll probably get their own heats.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 20, 2011 19:07:20 GMT
so if i come straight for you with my plate on the front, acting like a battering ram it wont bother you. Ok this clears my conscince Why? Is the rest of your cartie made from mashmallow and cotton wool? You're not making a case against mixed sidecar and cartie heats. You're making a case against sidecar racing in general.
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Post by peasnbarley on Nov 20, 2011 19:10:30 GMT
Graham wrote: Have to agree there but it is not always an easy decision for fear of getting drawn into an argument. Sidehacks can push start and get off the line quicker than carts which means you have to get past them before you can start the race cart to cart. Sometimes a sidehack gets to the switch first which adds to the concern of a spill and running over a prone body. If we are talking about safety then this adds another unnecessary risk as all cart drivers are strapped in and have more protection than a sidehack. Again the objective is to encourage these mad characters so if they are prepared to take the risk and the organisers are happy to run both classes together then I will go with that. I don't want to see anybody excluded by rule changes and just wonder how difficult it is to change a sidehack from one side to another?
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 20, 2011 19:17:43 GMT
There was only one right hand sidehack, and it was wrecked at CSEx2011. Nobody needs to rebuild anything.
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Post by kingkay on Nov 20, 2011 21:36:10 GMT
peasnbarly "I don't want to see anybody excluded by rule changes" Me neither – unfortunately some of us just have been.
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Post by grahamk on Nov 20, 2011 22:20:40 GMT
my current cartie has also been excluded also.
Regarding batteries, how are these not classed as ballast?,my current battery is a leisure one. If i remove my battery and buy an air horn which comes with its own air canister surely there might be a chance it could explode.
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Post by azuma on Nov 20, 2011 22:25:53 GMT
I don't want to take sides on the argument of who has been excluded by rule changes etc, but other sports undergo rule changes either to handicap, or make it safer. I got into gravity racing to build and race and have fun, and try to go as fast as the next man. Events such as CSE are the type of events that I want to race at, no disrespect to the others, but if safety is/or is likely to be investigated, then it is better to pre-empt, rather than wait for the accident, which does open the sport deep scrutiny. I personally do not want to be slowed down, but what options do the organisers of CSE have? They need to make the course safer for all, drivers, passengers, marshalls and spectators, without adding significantly to the event cost and event time. It is not possible to slow the course down so the carts have to be slower. The overheads being talked about are small compared with other forms of wheeled sports. For example: How long do cartie tyres last if not damaged - a season, possibly two?
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Post by leew on Nov 20, 2011 22:47:50 GMT
For example: How long do cartie tyres last if not damaged - a season, possibly two? My front tyres are original, and thus have survived 7 events and still look pritty good. The rears got robbed at some point for another bike.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 20, 2011 22:59:46 GMT
my current cartie has also been excluded also. Maybe you should have said something last week when i emailed the draft rules to you, instead of replying with "Looking at the proposed cartie spec, i am happy with this..." ? And you told me you're having a new one custom built anyway. Regarding batteries, how are these not classed as ballast?,my current battery is a leisure one. If i remove my battery and buy an air horn which comes with its own air canister surely there might be a chance it could explode. They're not ballast if they are powering your horn. They are ballast if they are powering your stereo. They are also ballast if you have enough battery power to run a submarine.
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Post by grahamk on Nov 20, 2011 23:17:57 GMT
Well seems any issues i would have would be thrown in the bin, as you said, executive committee members have the vote.
And the posts i have been putting out have came from personal messages sent to me on Facebook from various teams, funny to see there replies now.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 20, 2011 23:31:59 GMT
I trust you're telling them that you didn't object to any of the proposed changes - even the ones like mandatory bumpers and nerf bars which we subsequently dropped.
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Post by azuma on Nov 21, 2011 0:04:47 GMT
Regarding rules changes, I think we have lost sight of some the positives that have come from the introduction of CSE. I remember when Formula gravity spec was adopted by quite a few events and they were restrictive i.e. minimum eyeline, narrower track and shorter length, all up weight of driver and cart. etc. Not forgetting some of the discussions at Cadwell 2009, which were voted on by those present, which included mandatory rollbars regardless of the cartie type.
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