|
Post by SteveK on Nov 25, 2011 14:17:25 GMT
it hardly matters where we put the line, there is always going to be someone who is slightly over it. That's not to say the maximum wheel diameter might not change in the future. Sorry, Stephen it absolutely matters where you put the line- that's the point of a line. It doesn't matter who is slightly over the line, it matters whether they are safe or not if they are over the line. A change in the future would not help us. My son only reaches your minimum age of 16 next year, and finishes school early because of his GCSEs. Does anyone who knows our kart think it would be unsafe at Cairngorm? If so, I'll shut up. I'm sorry if you feel this is a personal attack-I don't wish it to be. As I've said, I admire what you do, I acknowledge your expertise, and I understand why you've changed the rules. I just think you've got this rule wrong. Our sport needs selfless organisers like you, but it also needs racers like us. The sport cannot grow if every event has significantly different rules. If you chose to regard this as a consultation process before entries are taken, are there not some things you might want to reconsider?
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 25, 2011 14:32:17 GMT
I've been quietly consulting people for months, but as the lead organiser and chair of the SCA, the legal, financial and moral responsibility is mine. You're not the one who will be explaining things to the procurator if something goes wrong, and neither is anyone else here who might or might not have an opinion on how safe your cartie is.
I know the maximum wheel size has excluded a very small number of perfectly reasonable carties. I also know it has excluded some absolute death traps, and I am entirely comfortable with that.
As for next year - who knows. All I can tell you for sure is that I will not be involved with CSEx2013 in an organisational role, so the decision will be someone else's. Yours, perhaps, if you feel strongly enough about it. Heck - you can even start sooner than that if you like. I'll step down tomorrow if someone is prepared to take over.
|
|
|
Post by SteveK on Nov 25, 2011 18:08:09 GMT
As for next year - who knows. All I can tell you for sure is that I will not be involved with CSEx2013 in an organisational role, so the decision will be someone else's. Yours, perhaps, if you feel strongly enough about it. I have always offered my support to the events I've attended. Dick Black will tell you I twice offered any support I could to Belchford this year, and we took a marshall to Dalby to help Andy. I've already said we can't come to CSE2013-whatever the rules, so I'm obviously not going to be organising it. I would have been very willing to help with CSE2012 if we were coming. I have said all I'm going to say on this. There's clearly a difference between a rational discussion, and "take it or leave it". Good luck to those of you who do compete or contribute to CSE2012. I hope to see some of you at other events next year.
|
|
|
Post by team-art on Nov 25, 2011 18:14:58 GMT
Steve, I can’t help you with your quest to do Cairngorm but I can invite you & your son to Border Bogies May 26th 2012. It’s a Saturday so your son would probably need the Friday off School, as long as it didn’t interfere too much with his GCSE’s. It’s not Cairngorm, but it’s not a bad day out. Rich
|
|
|
Post by SteveK on Nov 25, 2011 18:28:56 GMT
Steve, I can’t help you with your quest to do Cairngorm but I can invite you & your son to Border Bogies May 26th 2012. It’s a Saturday so your son would probably need the Friday off School, as long as it didn’t interfere too much with his GCSE’s. It’s not Cairngorm, but it’s not a bad day out. Rich Thanks Rich. That's good of you. I'll check dates and distances, talk to my son and let you know.
|
|
|
Post by Organgrinder on Nov 28, 2011 11:34:43 GMT
I am thinking about running a sidecar outfit at CSEx 2012 and I have been looking at the changes to the regulations for sidecars and soapboxes. I have to say that I'm rubbing my hands with glee because I think the changes will make the speeds of the two classes much closer than they have been up to now.
I think that UK teams have only started to scratch the surface when it comes to building a quick sidecar outfit, and soapboxes are much closer to being optimum. Without too much effort and only one very minor change to the machine (a change of handlebar!) we were four or five seconds quicker at Dalby in 2011 than we had been in 2010. This suggests to me that with a bit more thought we will find loads of time in 2012.
I note that the CSEx rules for 2012 allow sidecars to run with ballast. I am not really in favour of that and don't agree with Stephen's view that ballast is needed to make a sidecar handle predictably - after all, what's a monkey for if it's not to fine tune the weight distribution to make the machine go round corners without falling over? We run without ballast and our machine (which is far from being "refined") only weighs about 35kg. With driver and monkey on board we weigh in at about 195 - 200kg depending on whether or not we have had a good breakfast - about the same as a soapbox with a heavy driver. However we only have one brake to do most of the work and I wouldn't want to try to stop a greater weight than that from the sort of speed I hope to achieve on Cairngorm - a brake upgrade is very close to the top of my list of things to do before racing again, as I don't want to have to start braking for the switch 100 metres before I arrive at the corner!
I realise that if I were to run with an all-up weight of about 240kg I would be quicker on the fast parts of the course, but I am also mindful that I would be carrying all that weight on three tyres designed for BMX pushbikes and I think it would be foolhardy to run any heavier than I have to. I will also be looking for the strongest tyre carcasses I can find - at the moment I think the Primo Comet is the best tyre for the job, but research continues.
|
|
|
Post by peasnbarley on Nov 28, 2011 16:12:56 GMT
Organgrinder wrote: I think that is probably true in regard to Cairngorm and although I am a fully paid up member of the S.T.F.U. Club this is something that needs addressed sooner rather than later. I questioned the wisdom of running the two classes together at Cairngorm when there was a marked speed difference. Side-hacks will now have an advantage of a push start plus the reduction of speed imposed on the carties by the changes in Build Criteria. This as you say is going to make for much closer racing. I earnestly hope enough side-hacks enter Cairngorm so they can have their own class and not have cartie drivers grinding their teeth at the thought of running over some prone monkey on the way through the Switch.
|
|
|
Post by azuma on Nov 28, 2011 18:02:41 GMT
Organgrinder - the Primo comet is a very good tyre and does take abuse well. Maxxis Hookworms are equally as strong or even more so, but not as quick, especially when new. I have never used them when worm in, to see if it makes any difference. Another alternative, some of the cartie boys use, including Peter Pope, are the Maxxis Miracles (or maybe that was because they were cheap ). And thats not a bad thing especially if you want to keep a couple for spares.
|
|
|
Post by kingkay on Nov 28, 2011 18:59:12 GMT
As far as I know thats the only reference thats somethings good as its cheap. ;D
I thought what with the 200 different tyre trials and speed reducing regs its been turning into formula 1 arround here.
keep it up!.
|
|
|
Post by drscope on Jan 21, 2012 1:51:26 GMT
I've been looking over the rules and was wondering if someone could clarify the tire width rule. Where is that measured? Is that measured at the fattest part of the tire sidewall or at the tread surface?
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 21, 2012 9:11:16 GMT
It's the former
|
|
|
Post by drscope on Jan 30, 2012 23:30:30 GMT
While reading over your rules I've come acrosss your requirement for a 4 point harness and wanted to pass along a few comments.
The typical 4 point harness is made up of two sides of a lap belt and 2 shoulder straps.
This system has a few BAD flaws. First there is nothing to keep the driver from going out under the lap belt in a severe impact.
Second, and maybe more dangerous is the fact that with a 4 point harness there is nothing to keep the lap belt low on the hips. When you tighten the shoulder straps, you are also pulling the lap belt up.
In a severe impact, the driver will slip down under the lap belt, the lap belt will ride up and can then do serious damage to the driver’s ribs and abdomen.
A 5 or 6 point harness has an additional strap which comes up between the driver’s legs and attaches to the lap belt buckle.
This strap, referred to as the crotch strap, anti-sub strap, or sub strap, serves 2 functions. First it keeps the driver from being able to slide out under the lap belt in a sever impact.
Second, it also keeps the lap belt down low on the hips and will not allow it to ride up in an impact. It keeps the driver in place and also keeps the harness in place on the driver’s body.
Many motor sports groups in the U.S. do not allow the use of a 4 point harness for these reasons.
I would suggest you give some consideration to this issue and think about requiring the use of a 5 point harness in place of a 4 point harness.
The addition of the crotch strap should be an easy and inexpensive addition to just about any 4 point harness currently in use.
Short of this becoming mandatory, anyone with a 4 point harness in their cart should give serious thought to adding that additional strap for their own safety.
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 31, 2012 0:22:50 GMT
It says "4 point or better" - there is nothing to stop you having more anchor points if you wish. 5 point or better is required for reclined driving positions.
|
|
|
Post by caisse433 on Aug 10, 2012 19:56:41 GMT
hello, I wonder whether the device by the air brake retarder responded to the expectations or not, when I see the top speed achieved by the winner!
|
|
|
Post by andy on Aug 15, 2012 11:39:01 GMT
I think the speeds were down on last year.
|
|
|
Post by Organgrinder on Aug 15, 2012 12:56:41 GMT
I have just reviewed this thread. I'm still at a loss to understand why sidecars were allowed to run with ballast, when carties were not, especially as sidecars carry monkeys who can move their weight about at will to optimise balance and cornering power - essentially the same thing that cartie constructors are trying to achieve by placing ballast toward the front of their machines. Also, the all-up weight of an unballasted sidecar with two guys on board is greater already than the weight of a laden 100kg cartie and all the braking has to be done by a maximum of three wheels, rather than four. Our sidecar has run well all season and been very competitive at 63kg dry weight, without ballast apart from a hearty lunch being used for any event. (Perhaps there's something to be said for a lardy monkey!)
Did anybody feel that the drag plates fitted to the carties at Cairngorm made any significant difference to either speed or handling? If so, where is the best place to fit them to avoid problems?
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Aug 15, 2012 21:30:16 GMT
The speed gun was faulty so we didn't get any hard data, but from conversations with some of the teams I reckon the top speeds were between 60 and 65mph (96-104kph). In 2011 the top speed recorded on the speed gun was 70mph, so the changes seem to have reduced the speeds in line with what was predicted.
Most of the drag plates were fitted in front of the front wishbones/axles. I'm not aware of any adverse effects on handling.
The primary objective of the drag plates was to reduce top speeds to the low 60s. The reason there was no need to make similar changes to the rules for the sidecars is because their top speeds were already around that mark. As it happened, neither of the sidecars actually had any removable ballast anyway as they struggled to keep below the 75Kg limit. I think there is a case for allowing them a slightly more generous dry weight limit in future. FISD rules allow 100Kg.
Independent of Cairngorm, I think there are serious issues with the use of unlimited ballast - something that all other events allow. There are carties racing today which have as much ballast in them as they do structural steel, and I think that is not a particularly good idea, as I have grave doubts that a cartie which is 35Kg without driver or ballast but 150Kg all up is fit for purpose on a high speed course. Race organisers need to put some thought put into this.
A maximum allowed ballast weight seems a good solution, but needs to be balanced against the extra work at scrutineering since the ballast would need to be weighed separately. Whether or not that extra work is warranted is a decision for individual organisers.
|
|
|
Post by Organgrinder on Aug 20, 2012 9:59:06 GMT
Interesting stuff - thank you.
I don't have any problem with the use of ballast if it's used in a considered way to secure balanced handling and it's properly fixed in the machine. What evidence is there to show that well secured ballast is intrinsically dangerous? I can't see any reason for a 100kg cart that includes well positioned and properly secured ballast to be more dangerous than a heavily built 100kg cartie with no "ballast" - it could be argued that building heavy achives the same end result in terms of ultimate top speed, but is that actually a good thing? - I don't think so.
The well though out carties all seem to be built light enough to allow the competitor to add ballast in a place that achieves a good balance of the vehicle when there's a driver on board. In my view this is a good thing, as the ability to avoid an accident in the first place has to be a better way to go than concentrating solely on surviving the accident when it happens.
Not really happy with the idea of increasing the 75kg weight limit for sidecars, as I have concerns about wheel loadings, tyre strength and braking ability. I'm not sure what wheels, tyres and brakes are used on the continent and would be interested to know what weight people in other countries actually run with. Taking into account the running gear we are using in the UK, I would, if anything, prefer to see the maximum dry weight of a sidecar outfit reduced, perhaps to 65kg - Our outfit's bodywork is far from being lightweight and the machine weighs in at 63kg. So far, we have not found ourselves short of speed and the machine holds the road, brakes and handles really well. However, we have had to find a solution to wheel flexing issues, which additional weight would only exacerbate.
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Aug 20, 2012 12:35:59 GMT
I don't have a problem with ballast per se. I have an issue with unlimited ballast. I don't agree that an ultra light weight chassis is appropriate for a 60+mph race down a tree lined road. I don't think you can make a cartie with adequate roll protection using a few bits of box section, and even more so if you are going to add another 60 - 70Kg of ballast to it. You may well be happy for such a cartie to race at slower and less challenging events, but that's not what we're talking about here.
The FISD sidehack rules don't allow 20" wheels. The maximum diameter is 500mm. They seem to run with mini moto, scooter and pit bike wheels.
|
|
|
Post by caisse433 on Aug 21, 2012 22:40:01 GMT
the general trend in competition FISD is to mount tires on 8 "outside diameter 400mm, more or less, with a maximum permissible inflation pressure of 4.9 bar
|
|