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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 1, 2008 17:59:01 GMT
Ah now - web sites. I do web sites. I set up Grampian Carties, plus several others besides, and could bang out another in pretty short time. I also own the domain name soapboxracing.co.uk, which currently is just a placeholder with some youtube clips but could be up and running as a fully functional interactive web site within a matter of days. Alternatively, I could easily rename/rebrand Grampian Carties to be a more general UK site. Anyway - really happy to help out with the web site side of things.
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Post by barry on Nov 1, 2008 18:01:04 GMT
Hi all Barry again great to see we are getting some dialog going but where is everyone else? I count 7 of us chatting. there must be at least 50 teams out there!!!!!!! come on guys ( or gals ) where are you. lets have some more input as johnny 5 would say. As a point of interest I have a second soapbox that my 20 year old daughter would run at Cadwell but it fails on the too small wheel rule! is it now destined for the scrap yard as major surgery would be needed to change it and I ant got the time! see what I mean, bums on seats. Barry
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 1, 2008 19:25:47 GMT
Trikes has just posted some really interesting stuff about soapbox wheels and wheel sizes here (scroll down to the "comments" section) which would seem to contradict the accepted "bigger is better" wisdom. I wouldn't have a problem doing away with the minimum diameter completely. We don't have any wheel size restrictions at Catterline,so we get quite a range being used. Provided they can stop the thing at the bottom I really don't care. *** Edited to add; Don't scrap your cartie with the "too small wheels" - bring it up to Catterline and run it here!
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 2, 2008 22:08:56 GMT
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Post by gravitygrump on Nov 3, 2008 14:31:46 GMT
Interesting stuff - let's have more of it!
I can see no reason to impose a minimum wheel size from a safety point of view and as an organiser would be quite happy to do away with it, as it's just another thing to check. In any case, I think the fitting of brakes that meet the required standard would dictate the use of wheels that are reasonably sensible and an experienced scrutineer would be able to identify any wheels that are clearly not up to the job - I can think of one cart that turned up for scrutineering at Belchford this year with pushchair wheels that were already bent because the cart owner had been unable to resist having a sneaky practice on the course before getting the cart checked. The same cart, retro-fitted with sensible wheels ran sensibly all day when it mattered.
Dick and I have(I think, but it was after a spell in the Blue Bell) decided that the rules we finish up with after this consultation process will be the only rules for soapboxes at Belchford for 2009, so we would like to get more input and a few decisions made by the end of this month so that we can publish our rules. (However, to avoid too much work for competitors we have also decided that anything that complied and ran at Belchford in 2008 will be allowed to run again in 2009.)
If Barry's daughter's cart has wheels more that 8" in diameter she can also run it at Belchford under the current rules, as well as Catterline, where I believe no minimum size is specified.
The Australian Billycart rules are very similar to those we have drafted already, particularly in terms of weights and sizes. In some ways, such as the materials allowed, they seem more restrictive. Do we want to restrict chassis, bodywork and bearing materials at this stage? Seems like a good idea for the sake of another line or two in the rules, but would stifle innovation. I suggest we should keep things as simple as possible at this stage and review the rules once we have run a championship for a year or two, by which time we will know whether anybody; A: wants to use exotic and expensive materials and B: gains any worthwhile advantage from doing so.
It would be great to see more input, particularly from competitors at and organisers of other events such as Richards Castle and Mansel Lacy. I have e-mailed Mansel Lacy's organiser to let him know that this debate is going on and will do the same for the organisers of Richards Castle and Cadwell when I can find e-mail addresses that work - anybody got an address for these people?
Please spread the word!
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 3, 2008 15:53:42 GMT
I don't see Catterline moving to using just the National Rules as we're quite comfortable with what we've got as far as our local class competitors are concerned. We don't have any restrictions on chassis or wheel size. I don't think that's a problem though, as they are not mutually exclusive and anything that is National Rules compliant will also be Catterline Legal too (in fact we might explicitly state that in our rules just to avoid confusion) and we'll continue to have "Local" and "National" classes.
Maybe we'll even get some National entries in 2009... :-)
If we're going to have a national series, we should probably start to think about points as well.
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Post by gravitygrump on Nov 3, 2008 19:07:11 GMT
Points and prizes?
I suggest any prize should be in the form of a worthless trophy only.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Nov 3, 2008 20:12:03 GMT
Abcolutely - as cheap and tacky as possible. It would be quite appropriate if it were lashed together the night before from whatever bits happened to be lying around.
But points though-how about something along the lines of;
* 1st = 10, 2nd = 9, ... 10th = 1. * Plus 3 points for competing. * Teams must have taken part in at least half of the events to be eligible for the championship.
Might need some fine tuning. Or even some coarse tuning.
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Post by trikesrule on Nov 3, 2008 20:43:46 GMT
Hi guys. With Carties and Billycarts being 'entry level racing' we decided that expensive materials such as Carbonfibre be kept out of Billycart racing. We the STBG decided that as this is a familly sport / pastime that it had to be affordable for all. So people began to innovate with the cheaper end of the scale tyres and wheels. Being able to machine tyres has made the racing safer because competitors are able to run a heavier tyre like a Maxxis Hookworm yet remain competitive with the other lighter tyres out there. Of course the adage of moneey will buy you a win still stands but many a time I've witnessed the flash expensive cart being seen off by a cheaper built at home machine. We have a couple of interstate lads that come here to race and they have two machines, Both copies of US Soapboxs. Ones worth(?) $8000 and the other ten grand. They come here to race as I really irked them by beating them every time with a machine that owes me $600 over ten years and that includes a $250 helmet! The wide tyre ruling you have is responsible for making carts lift wheels and possibly ending in roll overs. I run on machined tyres with 4mm on the ground up front and 1.7mm on the back. Sure the cart slides around the corners but we've found drifting is way faster than driving through a corner. More fun too. Plus as we're able to pay attention to Tyre Slip Angles and dial in more and more speed. We're in the same boat as you guys. A large variety of carts. So we decided instead of asking people to change their cart we thought we would just control what was already out there. This decision has worked really well.
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Post by trikesrule on Nov 3, 2008 20:55:54 GMT
There is a class that races down the western side of Mt Panorama Bathurst. It's called the Procart Class. It's the opposite of what we endorse as you can run all the expensive exotic stuff in the world like Carbon fibre wheels ceramic bearings etc. The STBG watchs this class carefully but we have no control as this class was instigated by the Bathurst mob. No ones made a killer cart yet that one of the more developed cheaper ones can't take care of. .............trikes
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Post by broomer on Jan 7, 2009 15:37:51 GMT
Richards Castle is specifically a soapbox event,though we put on other entertainment at lunchtime to try and keep all the spectaters happy. I have been following the debate on National rules closely, My observation would be that at present we get around 36-38 soapboxes,of which maybe 1/2 dozen would be interested in travelling further afield for a National comp, therefore more relaxed rules are going to definitely be a bonus as no one would want to be excluded on a technicality after driving miles. Good luck with this I am watching closely!!
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Post by gravitygrump on Jan 10, 2009 15:09:12 GMT
Hi Broomer,
Great to see your positive comments seems that most people are for relaxing the rules so that we concentrate only on safety and a few "housekeeping" issues such as towing eyes that make life bearable for organisers. On this basis, if we were to form a National organisation to run a soapbox championship based on the draft rules, do you think Richards Castle would be on board, or would you want to see a few changes before you could adopt the rules, even for a separate class at the event?
Best wishes,
Grumpy
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Post by trikesrule on Jan 11, 2009 10:57:26 GMT
Hi guys. Too much here for me to catch up on but a couple of things I'd like to comment about. Firstly I should let everyone know I'm at the other end of our planet Tasmania Australia. Our Derby's include Street Luge in their own class and at the end of the day the fas yest cart races the fastest Luge. It's like a tradition here. And the score is one a piece. I've beaten the fastest luge on the day then i came back the following year and won on my Luge. If you want to keep luge out of your event ban lean steering. We've even had a race where the fastest gravity bike vs fastest luge vs fastest cart - the cart won. All from a standing start. Chap on the gravitybike was a bit wobbly at first but he came good. Do you guys have a few groups or bodies organizing races? How about getting together via a link up and discuss rational nationalization of the rules. We have done that here in Oz and we can basically go anywhere and race. Although I've encountered the 'no head first rule' and 'no trikes' a few times which sucks as I own every corner and straight line speed record here. I see you guys have a no head first thing also. Don't knock out what you haven't tried. With the weight thing we (right across Oz) don't weigh a cart until the end of days play. Then it's only the top three. In ten years as a Scrutineer I can tell you the winners are always the lighter carts although there appears to be an optimum kg for each track. The Roll Cage thing. We only enforce roll cages on enclosed carts where the drivers head protrudes. Same with seat belts. Making the minimum width on the rear 400mm makes it easier for aero designing of the bodywork. Your minimum front width should work no worries.
Hope my little bit of input helps you guys a bit. See you at the top someday I hope.........trikes
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Post by barry on Jan 11, 2009 19:43:37 GMT
great to see the dialog starting up again Ive missed the conversation over Christmas. Its also neat that we are global!. the belchford rule revision is fantastic, the guys have trimed them down without compromising the safety which is how it should be in my opinion. We (the wheel nuts ) are selling both our soapboxes this year,BUT only too build a new one! I feel that to put bums on seats we need to keep moving forward and for the spectators to be inspired to "have a go" we need to motivate them by constantly refreshing the racing field with new ideas and the ease at which they can join us. Both Dave and myself are looking forward to the year ahead and to some new faces. We intend to compete at as many races as poss and will try and help promote this great sport as much as we can Barry
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Post by trikesrule on Apr 13, 2009 6:04:01 GMT
Sorry for being a late starter (again) guys but can someone point out the problem with the black Honda. I race Luge Gravity Bike and Soapbox (all trikes) here in Tasmania Australia and I have no problem running my luge in amongst the Soapbox's. This is at the Hillwood River Festival Feb 09 and here at Baskerville Raceway 2008. These Luge guys have to do standing starts like the Soapboxs and are good steerers. We make them welcome at our Derby's. So don't be in too much of a hurry to disallow them from your Soapbox Events as they are a part of the gravity racing scene and they help get the numbers up on the day + they are easier and quicker to transport back to the Pits after a race.............Trikes
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Apr 13, 2009 13:07:49 GMT
Sorry for being a late starter (again) guys but can someone point out the problem with the black Honda. Outside the context of this discussion there is not much wrong with it at all. It's a beautiful machine and extremely quick. However, we were talking about trying to develop a set of rules made it easy to build a "national class" cartie while still keeping a reasonable level of safety, and had come up with the idea that you could have an "enclosed" cart with roll protection and a harness OR and open cart with no roll protection or harness but good protective clothing for the driver. Unfortunately, the black honda would probably fall outside those rules.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on May 15, 2009 11:44:12 GMT
We've decided to use the draft rules shown above as the basis for the rules for Cairngorm Soapbox Extreme, although since the event is going to put most carts at the very top end of their performance envelope we wanted to give the rules a bit more clarity in terms of protective equipment, brakes, steering, etc. A lot of the changes were inspired by the existing IGSA Rules for gravity bike and street luge, so we're quite confident they are fit for purpose. I'd be interested in any comments. You can get a copy of our revised Design and Safety Rules from the Cairngorm Soapbox Extreme downloads page.
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Post by martin on May 16, 2009 18:37:14 GMT
Hi,having just read the debate i feel i must make a comment on the rules as i would like to compete on a national basis . But as my cart doesnt comply this is not possible. Why not 3 wheeled machines?Anyway after spending many years karting and trying to compete against professional teams you soon realise Budjet means winning because you can take more risks with your racing and your machinery and when it all goes tits - up you just buy a new one. Also you can spend every day testing to get it right. The Honda cart showed above is awesome but if you want to get bums in carts ,one has to have a chance at winning. Against that budjet chances are few and far between. Down hear in sunny Aldington we have a rule that bans any cart from competing that has been constructed by a professional race team of any genre in order to keep budjets sensible. I dont like banning carts but in order to have a level playing field i feel it is nessesary i would love to do a national championship but if i had to compete against the likes of Lotus and Honda then probably not.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on May 17, 2009 12:17:29 GMT
Hi Martin. Some challenging questions there. The possible rule set we've been discussing has grown out of the rules used by a few events, and the "at least four wheels" is a fairly common theme. Speaking personally, I think that a soapbox cart is fundamentally a four wheeled contraption, and a three wheeler is - um - I don't really know. Something else - a "gravity trike" perhaps? We used to allow three wheelers at Catterline, but they were all so much quicker than their four wheeled cousins that we banned them. Maybe there is a case for having different classes - three wheeler and four wheeler. I don't agree that competing against big names will put people off. It certainly doesn't deter me and in fact it does exactly the opposite. I think the main issue we have to address is not the quality of the competition but the barriers to entry. The original rules were quite restrictive and set a standard that a of of people found hard to meet. The current draft, I think, addresses this quite well.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Oct 20, 2009 12:21:28 GMT
Looking forward to a chance to talk about this a bit more before Cadwell.
We had some good momentum earlier this year, and I hope we'll be able to get things moving again when we have chance to get together and talk about it in person over a beer and burgers.
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