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Post by ukigrf on Jan 3, 2011 22:20:17 GMT
Hi there all. Just to let you know there is now a new gravity racing group based in the Yorkshire area following the same ideals as the AIGRF based in Australia and many others based in the US. Please come and visit our blog, we hope to hear from you.
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Post by team-art on Jan 4, 2011 0:44:01 GMT
"A group of people who are not bound by technical rules and regulations, who simply want to meet up and race together" "Free from regulation gravity racing" Love the sentiment, shame you've copied something that's so restrictive! "1. All cars must have 4 or more wheels." (Still a cool idea/blog) Good luck, and I really hope it goes well. Cheers Rich
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Post by andy on Jan 4, 2011 11:37:51 GMT
count us in !
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 4, 2011 13:16:04 GMT
I must admit I'm not convinced this is a good idea and I am concerned that this might in the long run be damaging to all gravity racing in the UK.
The Scottish Cartie Association works closely with local communities, police, local authorities, statutory bodies, businesses etc in order to put on high profile and properly run events that are nonetheless fun, exciting and enjoyable. It would be a shame if all that hard work, and the good reputation we've built up as a result, should be jeopardised by association with self styled illegal racing.
Why not go the extra mile and organise properly insured and controlled events with adequate safety measures and the approval of the relevant authorities so that we can all join in?
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Post by woody on Jan 4, 2011 18:22:02 GMT
Hi ,a couple of us have been doing this in a small way in Snowdonia ,meeting up at 6am sunday morning (in the summer), if you fancy a trip we have hills ready to go
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Post by peasnbarley on Jan 4, 2011 19:26:36 GMT
Woody I would suggest what you have been doing in Snowdonia is not the same as is being proposed by ukigrf. Although having more than one cart present on the hill could give the police cause to say you were racing and as such breaking the law. My personal view is that most of the cartie builders and drivers know how far we can go as regards fun, practice and 'testing' while still keeping public opinion and support on our side. I am free to go and run my cart anywhere on a quiet public road and simply phone the traffic police to advise when and where and follow their advice. The rules we run with are of our own making and are neither set in stone, or that restrictive. For example simple build criteria rules for Castle Forbes were discussed along the lines of "Build it,bring it and race it" but as an organiser I decided to run more or less with the SCA rules. Why - simply because not to do so would present possible problems with event insurance and I wanted the credibility of showing my support for the SCA organisation. The ukigrf state there is always somebody who wants to spoil the fun and therefore they keep their cards close to their chest. I suspect at the moment the ukigrf is not so much an organisation as an idea and unfortunately it is an idea that if developed could well result in further official restrictions and a lack of tolerance that would indeed spoil all our fun. Andy: have you got two carts now or have you developed a stutter.
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 4, 2011 19:27:49 GMT
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Post by andy on Jan 4, 2011 20:20:23 GMT
That would be my Stutter !!!
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Post by UK Gravity Sports Asscociation on Jan 4, 2011 22:01:42 GMT
Hi everyone, Happy new year, ‘n all that. Now, I’ve never had to moderate anything before, but I suspect now may be the time? Ukigf. Now I’d be the first person to admit that I have ridden my gravity bike, soapbox, streetluge & skateboard on the public highway. And, as I understand it, they are perfectly legal (with the exception of things with skateboard wheels, if local byelaws prohibit them). There are some interesting legal conflicts involving bridleways/footpaths, but I won’t bore you with those……… Perfectly legal, I say, right up to the point where the word ‘race’ gets involved. Ok, so you call yourselves ‘illegal’ quite accurately. What is not so smart however, is posting your existence on a message board moderated by ‘ukgsa’ who (amongst other things, were created to) , and I quote from the Mission Statement…. “Encouraging its members to conduct themselves in a responsible manner and wear appropriate protective equipment, even when not participating in UKGSA events.”. Now, of course ukgsa is currently unconstituted (please see www.ukgsa.org/aboutukgsa.html for further details) but I would like to think I can adhere to its general ethos. The damage the negative publicity of what you propose could generate cannot be over-exaggerated (and please don’t say that ‘any publicity is good publicity’, cos we’ve had that one before). I hesitate to delete the post completely, because this is a debate I believe needs to be had, and also I do not wish to be accused of censorship. But (and I’ll pm ukigf shortly) having read the first post at about 1040pm last night, and pondering it whilst at work today, I think the reasonable thing to do is ask that the post is edited to remove the link, Within 24 hours. We’re not the thought police, but I am the moderator…… Practice runs, done sensibly, in low numbers, I have no problem with. But publicly encouraging racing on open roads? No way ! I don’t want to just pretend you (and the concept) don’t exist, but I think the argument for not going down this road (lol) can be won. Quite quickly & quite sensibly. Please post up why you feel the illegal route is preferable to ‘the ukgsa/sca etc etc way’. Let’s see if we can work this out? Cos otherwise a lot of fun is gonna be spoilt Cheers Ian
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Post by leew on Jan 5, 2011 10:34:19 GMT
Does not really appeal to me. I really enjoyed playing at Nab hill in 09 (see www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-dhppPFMew) I'd be up for more of the same. But this looks a bit diffrent. I don't like the idea of a large number of cars running at once or the fact that contact is allowed on an open road. The thought of someone bumping into me and sending me into the path of an oncoming car would not be pleasant.
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Post by andy on Jan 5, 2011 11:05:41 GMT
UKIGFR ....have sent you a PM. Would you be kind enough to get back to me ?
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Post by ukigrf on Jan 5, 2011 14:20:12 GMT
Please forgive my lack of a response, I am at work all day and have not had chance to follow up on all the questions and comments, rest assured I will get on to this tomorrow as I am off to London tonight to watch the footie.
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df
Beginner
Posts: 17
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Post by df on Jan 6, 2011 7:59:49 GMT
I have agonised over whether it is any of my business what the 'illegals' do because if they cripple anyone its their family home they will have to sell to pay the victim, not mine. Social networking sites will not allow you to remain anonymous and 'friends' soon desert when the s**t hits the fan.
Unfortunately, safety and litigation being what it is, any mishaps or problems with the authorities will reflect on us all and undermine those who are trying to encourage safe gravity sports, especially for young people. Insurers, Highways Depts and funding bodies etc all insist on proper organisation and safety precautions.
Everyone involved with gravity sports is in it for the buzz - the creativity, the adrenaline etc so it is a delicate balance between bureaucracy and fun. The mature approach is to accept that .
Yorkshire needs more organised events If you are so keen, please do it properly and do not spoil it for others. I am sure that Ian/UKGSA and Andy A would be keen to advise.
DF
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Post by UK Gravity Sports Asscociation on Jan 6, 2011 17:50:36 GMT
Thanks for that ukigrf much appreciated Ian
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Post by ukigrf on Jan 6, 2011 18:22:58 GMT
OK, so I wasn't anticipating this causing quite as much as a fuss as it has which is a shame because it is not what I wanted. I am pleased there are interested parties out there but I do share the view that 'all publicity is good publicity' is wrong.
The last thing we want to do is upset the community and cause problems for the UKGSA so any pointers on how to smooth things out would be very welcome.
At the end of the day our aim is to create a group of people, almost a club if you like, who would meet up at first light on one Sunday a month and ride down hills on home built machines, we are not looking to cause trouble and don't want to ruin anyone's hard work.
Hope this clears things up a little.
Kind regards,
Tim
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Post by woody on Jan 6, 2011 19:01:44 GMT
I am glad this is being debated like adults, have spoken to a serving police officer , this seems to be a fine line legally, the vehicle is not illegal (bicycle ) the racing is not illegal (no motors) , but , if you are a nuisance you can be done for almost anything the officer can think of ,like obstructing the highway ,disturbing the peace ,illegal parking, ETC ,ETC As our Gravity vehicles are legally bicycles in the eyes of the law there is no requirement for insurance , mot ,tax if someone on a bicycle hits your car you can not make a claim ( i have tried) if an ambulance is called the car owner has to pay ( even if in no way at fault) , so i dont see how someone has to sell their house to pay for anything we could do on our " bicycles" and as for our fellow " cyclists" then it is done at your own risk as consenting adults , surely ? the cycle club local to me regularly clog the local roads ,4 abreast , 100 of so bikes ,at peak times RACING ( or is that a time trial?) up to 4 hours at a time, no closed roads , no coppers seem to mind , no internet forums up in arms saying it will kill off organized events , a couple of them were killed (father and son i think , i feel the deepest sympathy for their family , a real tragedy) but no one has ever even suggested that bikes are kept off the roads . A couple of mates on a sunday morning out for a bit of fun ,in my opinion is fine , i can see a problem if 50 turned up !
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Post by ukigrf on Jan 6, 2011 19:37:15 GMT
Good to know that it would be law abiding as breaking the law is the last thing we want!!! Thanks for the research Woody!!!
I still think that working together and trying to find a happy medium is the best approach for all concerned and look forward to working together to strike that balance as well as meeting and racing, sorry i mean going down hill together!!!!
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Post by Scottish Cartie Association on Jan 6, 2011 21:01:02 GMT
I am not a lawyer, so the following should be read with that in mind. I'm glad that you're trying to organise more events. That's a great aim. Yorkshire is certainly not short of some great potential venues and I have no doubt that you'd get a good entry for a properly organised race (or races). My main concern is that - at least from what you've said on your web site and what you seem to be saying here - you seem to be trying to take some shortcuts which are going to leave you very exposed to legal and financial liabilites. As an organiser, you have a duty of care to make sure that things are carried out as safely as is reasonably practical. If there is serious accident and you cannot demonstrate that you've attempted to fulfil that duty, you're going to be in a great deal of trouble. With respect, I don't think woody's analysis is correct. Racing on a public highway, even if on a bicycle, is an offence under the Road Traffic Act (1988). (See www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/31). So how come we see cycle races on public roads? Well I've never been involved in one so I don't know, but I can only presume that they have acquired the proper authorisation and are conducting it in accordance with any conditions imposed. I expect that this would include local authority permission, notification of police and other statutory bodies as appropriate, and third party liability cover for the club and its officers to limit their exposure to financial risk in case of a claim against them. I've organised a couple of soapbox races in my time, and my normal first point of call is the local authority - usually the roads department, although possibly go straight to the chief exec's office. They'll be able to advise you on who you'll need to speak to and what permissions you'll need. I'd expect as a bare minimum that you'll need to notify the police and have adequate third party liability cover in place (typically £5M). In his very sensible and measured post above, df has suggested you seek advice from IanR or Andy. In addition, I'd be happy to give advice I can too. Just PM me for my email address, or contact me through the Scottish Cartie Association web site.
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Post by ukigrf on Jan 6, 2011 22:47:17 GMT
catterlinecarties, you are misunderstanding what is happening here and your misunderstanding is made very clear every time you mention the word 'event'. Sure, if there was an event organised then you would need public liability insurance however, a group of people who meet up and go for a ride on there bikes do not need to take out public liability insurance every time they do it, same goes for gravity racers. They are classed as cycles. If I changed the word race to ride then that would apparently make all the difference.
I am beginning to get the picture that some of you are thinking we want to go down the route of organised events, (which require insurance), and some serious organisation. Well you are wrong, I refer to the very first blog post,
"A group of people who are not bound by technical rules and regulations, who simply want to meet up and race together, share stories of builds, crashes, overtaking manoeuvres and then relive them for the following months."
A group of people, not spectators and editors and advertising, non of that, simply a group of people. If that is not suitable for here then fine, I wont waste my time. Having said that I am sure there are a few of you who do like the idea and do fancy a go. Simply look at the format for the AIGRF and tell me what is wrong with it, really.
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Post by peasnbarley on Jan 6, 2011 23:05:21 GMT
ukigrf: They are classed as cycles. If I changed the word race to ride then that would apparently make all the difference. I am only going to say that Carties are not cycles and you can change whatever words you like and it will not make one bit of difference because the police will charge you with endangering public safety. Not extensive but as near as several visits to Grampian Police could get me to the legal position of carties on the road. alfordgravityracing.co.uk/?page_id=383 You are wrong to think you don't need insurance - You as the instigator of these races would be sued to hell and back if there was an incident.
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